On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Linda Kateley <[email protected]>wrote:
> All of this discussion makes me know more than ever that we need a > governing board. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. In order to make > decisions a board should be elected by the community and for the community. > From the governing board, we should be able to add working groups/projects. > > All in favor of nominating and electing a governing board? > +1 > > lk > > > > > > On 11/29/11 4:18 AM, DavidHalko wrote: > >> Hi Michael W, >> >> I appreciate your kind and sensible words. >> >> You left some numbered questions& comments. I hoped to share a bit. >> >> >> Another distribution? See below >> >> (3) Another Name? No... Brand it OI for short. OI is GREAT. >> >> (7) Vote on a userland? Democracy is 2 wolves& a sheep voting on dinner. >> I don't know if that is the right thing to do. >> >> Am I the only one who sees what has happened over the past 25 years >> between Solaris& GNU& Linux? >> >> >> (4) userland rant coming, take out your knives and guns! >> >> GNU userland is basically Linux, because GNU never finished a real >> kernel, and Linux never had a real UserLand. It was 2 half successful >> projects merged together, a marriage of convenience but never a true union. >> > The founders of nexenta believed and still believe that we should make the > core platform features easier to use for linux users. That was why they > added to debian userland in the first place to their distro. I think it is > a good idea for this to continue. There is every indication that stormos > will continue to do this. > > >> SVR4 userland was only ever partially implemented in Solaris, two >> successful products, each killing off each others most successful features >> over time. >> >> I think there just needs to be an effort to make SVR4 userland what it >> used to be in other defunct SVRx worlds - easy to use: text, X, and then >> extended to HTTP interface. GNU can come along for the ride! >> >> I still can't believe that FMLI was killed when other SVR4 systems were >> able to do all system admin work, including: user admin, group admin, >> printer admin, packaging, network configuration, os upgrade, running user >> applications, and provide extensibility for data centers to build their own >> menu based automations. SVRx leveraged the same FMLI language to deliver >> everything over X (XFMLI) with no code changes. It should have been wrapped >> in HTML/JavaScript instead of killed (and not replaced with something >> functionally equivalent.) >> >> As soon as Sun had something good, they killed it for a worse user >> experience. Sunview was nice and fast - it made them a market leader with >> easy administration. DisplayPostscript brought desktop publishing, then >> went the way of the dinosaur. OpenWindows was slower, but not ad slow ad >> what was to come. FMLI arrived, could build menuing interfaces for user and >> admin communities. OpenStep was beautiful, but never delivered. Motif was a >> pig when CDE wad introduced. The admintool became more crippled. At least >> CDE came with windowing sh for building GUI/scripting interfaces, even >> though xfmli was never ported. Gnome was bigger/slower yet with virtually >> no simple way to administer/customize it. FMLI and windowing shells got >> killed with nothing to replace them. User communities, what were they? Once >> again, more difficult to manage at every step, rip out what worked well, >> and leave nothing to replace it. >> > You are absolutely correct. > >> >> Workstations were a breeze to set up. Pull a box off the loading dock, >> copy down the MAC, copy it into a config file, roll the workstation onto a >> desk, boot it up. Zones and workstations should have been the same >> abstraction instead of killing diskless workstations and later killing >> sparse zones. The workstation handling made Sun market leader, then they >> stopped advancing state-of-the-art and killed it. >> >> Svr4 packaging was awesome. Packages were quick to build via a script. >> could be verified, packages already installed could be verified in case of >> tampering, it could be network based with nfs, even worked with zones >> automatically (made my life easier with a dozen zones per host machine!) >> Packages could be made architecture an os aware (my packages worked across >> SPARC Solaris and Intel non-Solaris OS's seamlessly, no need to have >> multiple packages.) Was it perfect? No, but could have been extended via >> http with little effort, buy it was killed. >> >> What about sar? It was awesome. Someone decided to make the "-u" options >> basically useless recently by making a column show bogus data. I used to >> pop graphs out in a one-liner using xterm with tek emulation with sag. Oh, >> someone decided to kill fast out of the box performance graphing and not >> replace it. That was ok because "sar -u" gave a bogus column anyway, right? >> >> If we are going to get another distribution, how about one based upon >> Illumos that works on SPARC III, IIIi, IV, IV+ out of the box? If not, >> don't bother. >> >> If we are getting another distribution, how about one that works in 128mb >> and can be used with embedded systems with standard text menus over a >> terminal over X console via ssh? Throw in a light and easily customizable >> window manager like OLVWM? How about make vnc work out of the box with the >> start of a service? We want a tight distribution to do things with. If not, >> don't bother making another distribution. >> >> Some claim they want a server OS? Do it right. Make the TK SNMP MIB >> browser shipped with the OS actually work (what a concept) and monitor >> local& remote systems, use RMON& DISMAN for all NET-SNMP alerts and data >> gathering, use SNMP TrapD to syslog out-of-the-box for system health, >> snmp-to-dtrace interface, sar-to-snmp interface, zpool-to-snmp interface, >> etc.) Make a real server OS with managability light years ahead using >> incremental improvement instead of making a Linux look-alike (which feels >> 10 years older with missing features, that are being killed off of >> Solaris.) Don't claim to want to be a server OS without decent SNMP, if >> DTrace is really that good, gateway it, and make sure the TK based X MIB >> browser can graph it all - otherwise, don't bother with another server >> distribution. >> >> If we want a real user workstation distribution, give an option like >> olvwm so hundreds of users can easily be administered centrally and >> hundreds of users can painlessly be running virtual desktops on a single >> socket. Make network boots that look like sparse zones. Provide talk, wall, >> email, nntp news, smtp, finger, ruptime on the servers and remote >> workstations (that should boot off the server and look just like a zone.) >> Throw in blogs& wiki for fun. Ensure there are X and Http interfaces for >> everything. Other WM's should install through package management and work >> without configuration. Web browser should auto-update. PDF and Flash should >> auto-update. Add a multi-platform IM tool. If not, don't bother with >> another desktop distribution. >> >> If a feature was fast& easy to use, it was killed. I am tired of seeing >> people kill a good thing, reinventing the wheel, just to give the community >> less, a little slower, but looking more modern. >> >> >> If we want really modern user interface, resurrect Looking Glass. How >> about OpenStep, to draw some Apple programmers working on top of Darwin? >> One of the OpenMotif libraries, for compatibility? How about adding >> OpenLook back in there, for a fast/clean window manager? I know, Unicode is >> a problem, but not in the Open Source world - deploy what we have, let the >> community choose, give the community time to fix it. >> >> Invest time into OpenIndiana and put back some of the old dead stuff that >> made SVR4 userland superior to GNU userland... Then take standard SVR4 >> userland stuff and extend it, that code is static and we have no fear of >> merging it back. Keep the GNU userland that comes from Solaris, let Oracle >> upgrade it. If the don't release the code, we have options, but actively >> developed code that overlaps with Solaris should be the last things we >> touch. >> > Yes, but we need the community to drive and create these changes. > >> >> There are several high priority places to target: >> - SPARC, for disaffected development users and cheap equipment which will >> be rolling out of data centers, as new equipment is rolled in, OI has an >> opportunity to make a foothold into these datacenters, as long as old >> equipment is there and we retain compatibility. >> - User Friendly Administration, to bring in those new users. Linux did it >> with a vastly less friendly system from original SunView or SVR3/4 (olwm, >> cde, fmli/xfmli.) >> - User Friendly GUI, to make it easy to use& customize, not fancy, >> consider old hardware off eBay, must do basics out-of-the-box like an >> Apple, as easy to maintain as an Apple. Without Jobs, this arena should be >> targeted, this is the future. If it can not be managed easily, it should be >> an add-on, not default. Users should be able to adjust their monitor >> settings, right? (I do some of that with vnc terminal servers and scripts, >> today.) >> >> - Embedded and appliance, gotta be easier to manage out of the box than >> other systems (snmp, telnet, ssh. X, http)... Build every interface as an >> abstraction so no work must be duplicated. This is our bread-and-butter >> now. This pays the bills. We should be BETTER than EVERYONE in appliances >> if we want to survive. OI should become the choice OS for embedded >> appliances. >> - Cloud, this is medium future. Joyent is doing awesome. Desktop >> virtualization should be done like no one is doing today, to make a splash >> in the trade rags. What about booting OI off a cloud and resurrecting >> cachefs, make the desktop look like a zone? Leverage free services to host >> pieces? Use a USB stick to make a dataless workstation? Checksums with zfs >> should make an awesome back end store with very little front end effort. >> Zfs compression should make an awesome mechanism to compress data between >> the client& the cloud. OI should become the choice OS for clouds and >> virtualized desktops, based on our history. >> - Virtualization, host other architectures in zones, don't have to do it >> fast, just do it. Intel, SPARC, ARM, POWER. Base it on KVM. A zone should >> be able to host any architecture OI instance on any platform. Software >> should work everywhere, speed should be the only variable. Old Sun,& Mac's >> should be our friends. Old linksys should be our target. Someday, ARM will >> be in the cloud, OI should be their first choice - let then develop in a >> zone, then let them run Intel in a zone. >> >> - clustered file system, this Is killing Solaris. I needed one for years. >> At the very least, we need some kind of file replication. Will Lustre ever >> be available for OI? Will our changes be too much to make it incompatible >> when it arrives? >> >> We have to build on what we have done well (we have the chance to be the >> new SVRx), stop scrapping stuff which works (give ISV's another place to >> make their goods available, before the port to Solaris 11 is done), stop >> replacing with less functional new stuff, stop making new distributions, >> stop renaming stuff (no one knew what Sun sold because they renamed it >> every year) - we have to move forward from where we are. Fujitsu should be >> building SPARC clusters on OI and not Linux!!!!! >> >> I lived this back in the 1980's in another real-time community, when I >> did some assembly kernel work, this is giving me a nightmare just thinking >> about it. >> >> This is not rocket science, much of it can be done in awk or a cron job. >> Most of it can be directed and libraried to different higher level >> contributors (not kernel coders.) I am willing to help. >> >> I hope this gives people a better feel for where some of us come from. We >> just want our 25 year old scripts, books with notes, subroutine libraries, >> and home-made tools to work. We want more features - not just rip& >> [almost] replace approximately every 6 years. >> >> >> Dave >> http://netmgt.blogspot.com/ >> PS the (5) "Crown Jewels" of Solaris are of little value when we don't >> see the benefits through standard management interfaces (SNMP for zfs, >> DTrace, zones, crossbow, netfilter, etc.) and standard user interfaces >> (syslog viewer, TK snmp grapher, TK snmp walker, user programmable Alerts >> from syslog, users in a zone "talking" to another zone, etc.) OI should be >> able to be configured through SNMP as well as configure others OI systems >> through SNMP. A true Internet Cloud OS as well as Desktop. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > I can't believe you sent this long email from your phone... amazing! > >> >> On Nov 28, 2011, at 2:16 AM, Michael >> Widmann<michael.widmann@gmail.**com<[email protected]>> >> wrote: >> >> Hi >>> >>> Well spoken everyone - one is missing that doesn't declare himself and >>> should please said some thing on this : Garret .... >>> >>> 1.) Garret in front of the curtain please >>> >>> 2.) Would it be frank to ask - could we donate for OpenIndiana? and if >>> so where - and what do donate? >>> >>> 3.) Question: Is there a real problem with the name - or only this IPS / >>> SRV4 Package hating generation conflict? >>> >>> 4.) UserLand discussions are slightly boring (IMHO) - cause the >>> OpenSolaris / OpenIndiana Userland I'm personally used too not really >>> interested in debian UserLand or anything else... >>> >>> 5.) What really matters: ZFS / DTrace / KVM / Zones / Crossbow - could >>> we all work together to make a progress their - and maybe starting to >>> innovate with an "open board" >>> >>> 6.) Every Distro has it's beautiful side - could we hammer out (for >>> people not knowing one of this either) which one is best for what case? >>> (making a list together where each is aimed to be installed / used) >>> >>> 7.) Let the community vote for the userland and the winner should help >>> the others to integrate .... (if it is illumnos / debian userland - please >>> help OI to integrate) >>> >>> 8.) thanks to everyone who does a great job - on the core / the >>> distribution / the integration of new things (nexenta - illumnos / >>> alasdair - openindiana / joyent team - kvm / dtrace and tons of updates >>> and fixes) >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> 2011/11/28 >>> Alexander<alexander.r.eremin@**gmail.com<[email protected]> >>> > >>> Well said. Just let's work together, I do not understand why the name of >>> the distribution can be an obstacle. I do not see any threat to OI, >>> moreover, I think working together on the integration of new packages and >>> the use of one illumos-userland will helps everyone. Let's just work, as >>> Bryan said. >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Nov 28, 2011, at 1:43 AM, Bryan >>> Cantrill<bryancantrill@gmail.**com<[email protected]>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Michael Widmann< >>>> michael.widmann@gmail.**com <[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> Any comments on this joyents and nextentas? >>>> >>>> First, Joyent, Delphix, Nexenta and every other member of the illumos >>>> community contributes to illumos -- to the core operating system -- which >>>> in turn benefits everyone (OpenIndiana included). So we have in fact >>>> helped OpenIndiana (most significantly with our KVM port to illumos, which >>>> OpenIndiana included in its oi_151a release) -- and we will continue to do >>>> so. >>>> >>>> That said, I think it's important that we as a community recognize that >>>> what binds us is core OS technologies (ZFS, Zones, Crossbow, DTrace, KVM, >>>> etc.), and not how those technologies are packaged and distributed. A >>>> central aspect of the failing of OpenSolaris (in my opinion) was that we >>>> collectively (and Sun in particular) insisted on there being only One True >>>> Path for the entire system. At its best, this ethos manifested itself as >>>> endless discussions on governance and voting and constitutions -- and at >>>> its worse led to arguments, discord, politicking and fracture. >>>> >>>> But with illumos, we have a rebirth: we have not only fresh blood in >>>> terms of technologists, but also (I would like to think) more tolerance >>>> around those elements that are ancillary to those core technologies. As >>>> such, several distributions have flowered that would have not been possible >>>> in the shadow of OpenSolaris -- and I expect more to come. This is >>>> _healthy_ as it means that more people (not fewer) will be exposed to our >>>> core values as new distributions arise to fill new niches. As a community >>>> moving forward, we need to stay focussed on the values that bind us -- and >>>> that means leading with the technology, not pre-announcements or rhetoric >>>> or endless discussion. To that end, I would point to the illumos hackathon >>>> as a shining example of what we can and should be doing: similarly minded >>>> people coming together to advance the state of the art in operating >>>> systems! >>>> >>>> With that, I would like to ask that we cease the friendly fire and get >>>> back to work. Speaking personally, I am going to be spending the afternoon >>>> finishing up the ::scalehrtime dcmd that we found so invaluable on a nasty >>>> KVM problem this past week (patch to come on that one), and adding some >>>> code to the panic path that would make a similar problem slightly easier to >>>> debug -- work that I believe to be examples (if extraordinarily small ones) >>>> of the values that bind our community... >>>> >>>> - Bryan >>>> >>>> illumos-discuss | Archives | Modify Your Subscription >>>> >>> illumos-discuss | Archives | Modify Your Subscription >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> bayoda.com - Professional Online Backup Solutions for Small and Medium >>> Sized Companies >>> illumos-discuss | Archives | Modify Your Subscription >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------**------------- >> illumos-discuss >> Archives: >> https://www.listbox.com/**member/archive/182180/=now<https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/182180/=now> >> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/**member/archive/rss/182180/** >> 21175644-0c0ef58a<https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/182180/21175644-0c0ef58a> >> Modify Your Subscription: >> https://www.listbox.com/**member/?&;<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> >> > > -- > Linda Kateley > Global Evangelist and Community Manager > (mobile) 612-807-6349 > (email) [email protected] > (skype) lkateley > > > > > > ------------------------------**------------- > illumos-discuss > Archives: > https://www.listbox.com/**member/archive/182180/=now<https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/182180/=now> > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/**member/archive/rss/182180/** > 21175563-a31db35a<https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/182180/21175563-a31db35a> > Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/** > member/?&id_**secret=21175563-0bb30ad8<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > -- HeCSa ------------------------------------------- illumos-discuss Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/182180/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/182180/21175430-2e6923be Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21175430&id_secret=21175430-6a77cda4 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
