amen! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of Mac OS X by theblind" <discuss@macvisionaries.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 6:58 PM Subject: Re: Really annoying issue with editing in text boxes.
Hello, Something I forgot. Just another thought. The cursor is actually between the letters, instead of right under a letter as in Windows. Quite frankly, this really is the way it should work. That way, no matter what direction you're working in, things are more accurately represented. Dan On Nov 25, 2008, at 3:53 PM, Dan wrote: > Hello, > I think of it this way. > The cursor follows the direction you're working in. > For example, if you go back to the start of a line, the cursor will > be just behind where you now are. When you hit right arrow, instead > of hearing the second letter, as you would in Windows, you will hear > the actual first letter on the line. And as far as I'm concerned, > that's really the way it should work. The same holds true if you go > to the end of the line and hit left arrow, you will hear the last > character on the line. I think Windows has it all wrong and Apple > did things properly. > HTH > Dan > On Nov 25, 2008, at 3:16 PM, Scott Howell wrote: > >> David, your correct, but what we need to explain is that in fact >> this is because VO is different than windows-based screen readers. >> I agree this is a bit tricky to get used to initially, but you will >> get the hang of it. I don't know how to explain this so it makes >> sense, but if you come up to a word, you hear the first letter, if >> you back up with the left arrow, you will be just to the right of >> the character. You will hear it seemingly speak double characters, >> but it's how the cursor moves and not a VO bug. Someone with much >> greater literary skills can probably make this easier to >> understand, but trust me, it's something you get used to and it'll >> make sense. >> >> On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:19 PM, David Poehlman wrote: >> >>> this is a user issue. It is not a bug. My suggestion is practice. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Christopher Gilland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: <discuss@macvisionaries.com> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 5:09 PM >>> Subject: Fw: Really annoying issue with editing in text boxes. >>> >>> >>> I sent this to Apple Accessibility. >>> >>> Do any of yall have any thoughts? >>> >>> Chris. >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Christopher Gilland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 5:04 PM >>> Subject: Really annoying issue with editing in text boxes. >>> >>> >>>> I am a voiceover user using Leopard 10.5.5. >>>> >>>> I have noticed this issue as far back as the first release of >>>> Tiger. >>>> >>>> Basically, it's gonna be hard for me to type out what is >>>> happening, being >>>> this is more an auditory based thing, so try to stick with me on >>>> this. I >>>> really hope I don't confuse you all. >>>> >>>> OK, I have a document up, o... let's just say, in, o? I dunno. >>>> Text Edit, >>>> we'll just say for sakes being. >>>> >>>> OK, I have typed the following line of text in a new, blank text >>>> document. >>>> Please pay extremely close attention to how I've typed this both >>>> gramatically, and also spelling: >>>> >>>> The colors of tHe flag r red. white. and blUe? >>>> >>>> Boy, this sentence is r'r'r'really! messed up! >>>> >>>> Let's edit it. >>>> >>>> OK, I go to the beginning of that line with command+left arrow. >>>> >>>> I hear the word, The. >>>> >>>> OK, so now I move word by word, with option right arrow. >>>> >>>> The >>>> colors >>>> of >>>> tHe >>>> >>>> Whoops? We gotta booboo here. OK, so, I hit right arrow. >>>> >>>> I hear space. UM? OK? >>>> >>>> I hit left arrow. I hear again: Space. What in the heck? >>>> >>>> I hit left arrow again. I hear E. aa, K. now we're getting >>>> there. I >>>> left arrow again. I hear cap H. There we go. I need to delete >>>> this and >>>> put a lower case h, instead of capital. So I hit the delete key, >>>> then >>>> type lower case h. >>>> >>>> Now, if I read the current line with vo+L, I hear: >>>> >>>> hhe colors of tHe flag r red. white. and blUe? >>>> >>>> What? in the world? Why did it do? that! >>>> >>>> I called a friend for help, and what he told me is the >>>> following. I've >>>> pasted his response below: >>>> >>>> >>>> Wo wo wol Chris! Hold on here. Wol! Ur'r'r'rk? >>>> >>>> Um? You're kind a failing to see something here: You're >>>> thinking Windows >>>> again. Stop doing that. Voiceover, thank God, doesn't work like >>>> JAWS. >>>> You can't edit that way. The thing is, Chris, as you left and >>>> right >>>> arrow, you know how in Windows, your insertion point is gonna be >>>> right on >>>> the actual character that it speaks? Well, un? fortunately, in >>>> Voiceover, >>>> it's not quite that simple. In VO, it is actually reading to you >>>> the >>>> character that your insertion point passes over, rather than the >>>> way >>>> Windows does it, with jfw, by reading the character you're >>>> sitting on. >>>> >>>> This is why when you hit the left arrow then delete, it did what >>>> it did. >>>> >>>> Let's say, Chris, that you type the word Hello, but instead of h, >>>> e, l, l, >>>> o, you did: h, e, k, k, o. Hekko? What the hell kind a word is >>>> that! >>>> >>>> So, you wanna get rid of those two k's, and replace them with >>>> l's. Right? >>>> OK, What I'd! do, Chris, is I would option right arrow, until I >>>> hear >>>> Hekko. Now remember, Chris, you're not on the word Hekko. >>>> Because you >>>> were working to the right in the document, where are you really? >>>> cor, >>>> rect! You're to the right! of the word hekko. That is >>>> definitely not >>>> where we wanna be, is it? So hit option left arrow one time. >>>> You'll hear >>>> again: Hekko. Can you explain to me Chris, why that is? The >>>> reason's, >>>> because now, you moved to the left! of the word Hekko. See... >>>> you're not >>>> on the word actually. That's where you're getting confused. On >>>> the Mac, >>>> unlike in Windows, there is! no such thing, as being quote, >>>> unquote, on! a >>>> character/word. You have to be on either trailing side of it, and >>>> depending on whether you've done left arrow, or right arrow, will >>>> determine which side you're on. OK, so now. We're to the left >>>> of the >>>> word Hekko. hit you're right arrow. You'll hear cap H. >>>> however, watch >>>> this. read your current character with vo+C. Did you see what it >>>> did? It >>>> said E. It didn't say H did it. ok, now hit left arrow. What >>>> did you >>>> hear? You heard E again didn't you. Now, hit vo C. Notice it >>>> said H? >>>> See? it's telling you what your cursor passed over! not! what it's >>>> actually on. so hit right arrow once. You heard E. Actually >>>> though, it >>>> passed the letter e, and since you're working to the right, it >>>> now is >>>> sitting on the right side of the letter E. So I betcha, if you >>>> now hit vo >>>> C, it'll say K. See that? You're now actually sitting on the >>>> first >>>> letter K in Hekko. So, hit your delete key twice. now, type ll. >>>> >>>> Now read the current line with vo+L. >>>> >>>> Hello >>>> >>>> See? Mission accomplished! >>>> >>>> >>>> End of response from my friend. >>>> >>>> >>>> God! blessid! That confused me. I don't totally get what he's >>>> saying >>>> about it passing over things etc. That's driving me to drinking, >>>> as I >>>> can't hardly edit a document this way. >>>> >>>> Is there any way to think about this differently, or at least, >>>> maybe a way >>>> in a future update, maybe under navigation in the vo utility, >>>> yall could >>>> make a checkbox, to make it behave more like Windows and speak >>>> what it's >>>> actually under instead of what it passes? God. I'm sure I'm not >>>> the >>>> first newly migrating user from Windows to a Mac, who's ran into >>>> this. I >>>> dono if it's a bug, that yall didn't really fix, as most people >>>> don't >>>> really seem to care, they just deal with it, or if you all >>>> purposefully >>>> made it this way, but no offense. In all do respect though guys, >>>> this! is >>>> outstandingly disgusting! >>>> >>>> Ewww! Yoyk! You can imagine for people who have to work in other >>>> languages that don't use the standard lattin based alphebet, you >>>> can >>>> imagine for someone like that, how Godly hard this would be to >>>> edit. >>>> >>>> Say in Arabic, you're wanting to type Allah. >>>> >>>> Yes, you could do: A, l, l, A, h. but what if you're really >>>> typing >>>> arabic. >>>> >>>> Alif, lam, lam, heh. >>>> >>>> now that is Not! gonna read with vo if you use the actual Arabic >>>> letters, >>>> so, editting that? being you don't know what you're literally, >>>> on, as it's >>>> passing things, not reporting what you're sitting on? Now you got >>>> yourself a double! challenge. Trying first to figure out what >>>> characters >>>> you got, and B, figuring out where your cursor really truely is >>>> sitting, >>>> not what it's passed over. >>>> >>>> just, ya know: >>>> >>>> Be aware of this. It is something that I really think you all >>>> may wanna >>>> consider looking into as it's so confusing to me, it's almost >>>> making me >>>> scared of Leopard, and really wanna use it less and less. It >>>> just cfeels >>>> so awquard! Any suggestions? >>>> >>>> Chris. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> Scott Howell >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> > >
