On Friday, December 06, 2013 21:57:21 Omar Rassi wrote: > >"Donating to SYNHAK", v - Giving property to SYNHAK that further enables > > the > organization's mission to provide an environment for people to educate, > create, and share amongst themselves and others within the domains of > technology, art, and science. > > "Tax deductable donation", n - A donation to SYNHAK that gets a reciept in > return, and should be handled through the Treasurer. > > This is where my confusion comes from. Two routes of donation that mean > different things. This should fall on the Champions to clarify with the > person donating, "Are you leaving this here as junk material for anyone to > scrap/use/hack/tinker? Or is it something for Synhak Inc. and you need a > receipt?"
I'm not sure why anyone would think that. It was never stated to the best of my knowledge. I thought it was fairly clear that membership doesn't give anyone exclusive rights to things in the space, especially in terms of supplies that are available, unless something was agreed upon through consensus. By Champions, I assume you mean "whoever is in the space and accepting it at the time". Why should it just be two people? We can document the procedure and throw it up on the wiki. Anyone who is accepting donated stuff can either check the wiki to see what to do or tell the donor to come around another time when someone who is able to handle it can do so. Here's a stub: https://synhak.org/wiki/Donations Champions have no extra power, and an incredibly small set of responsibilities that go beyond those of a member's: * Making sure the space is active and effective at pursuing the mission statement in the bylaws * Covering legal liabilities * The interface between the membership and the board The title is only there because they go out and represent the membership of SYNHAK to the world and beyond. Chris and I are not SYNHAK. We are not the executive branch of SYNHAK. The membership as a whole are the people who do things. Champions are not the only ones who are responsible for maintaining SYNHAK. Who works aganst entropy to organize the space and keep it clean? Everyone. Who takes out the trash? Everyone. Who acquires supplies for building things? Everyone. Who looks for a bigger location? Everyone. Who makes sure that all persons involved with the space are excellent? Everyone. Who is responsible for making sure people don't get upset about misunderstandings in the terms and conditions of the junk pile? Everyone. > My thought was that it all went to Synhak Inc. for people to > start sifting/sorting/using/hacking but it stayed at synhak, then once it > made its way to "junk" status then it was freely available for anyone to > take home, claim, blow up, paint, hack, feed to robo dog, etc. If it goes to SYNHAK, Inc, how does that mean that non-members are barred from using it? Using the basis of material benefits, at what point do you suggest that non- members and members start to differentiate? I can list a number of activities that consume resources at SYNHAK in increasing monetary value: Picking through our scrap wood boxes Looking at cat pictures on the internet Adding a few seconds of wear to a drill bit Borrowing a spraycan of paint for a minute Using a handful of screws to finish the project they brought from home Participating in a project using the mailing lists Using some 3d printer filament to quickly print a part Cutting up some 2x4s Running a heater all day Replacing a dead hard drive from the server stocks Printing black rectangles on 80,000 sheets of paper After some point, the lack of free resources due to consumption start to interfere with the goal of providing an environment for others to hack. The person in question must replenish the same resources that they consumed through giving money or goods to SYNHAK. Not doing so is not excellent. Not being excellent to the point of preventing others from hacking on a regular basis would be a very good reason for banning someone from the space. I think it is incredibly unfair to say that non-members are left with the "junk" of the junk while paying members get automatic privilege over anyone else who might be looking to be a part of SYNHAK. This smells super rank and discourages creativity. > > Tuesday's meeting is going to be... interesting regarding this topic. It > seems that as Synhak grows, there needs to be more and more clarification... Only natural. Its fairly hard to find good documentation on existing patterns for handling this, along with trying to understand every angle while still adhering to the group's mission. > On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 9:32 PM, Torrie Fischer <tdfisc...@hackerbots.net>wrote: > > On Friday, December 06, 2013 20:33:52 Justin Herman wrote: > > > First want to say that everyone I have ever met at synhak is cool. > > > > > > This is my POV so please take the little it is worth. > > > > > > > > > I would like to make it clear that I never intended to cause someone to > > > > be > > > > > upset by donating equipment. BUT I did donate it to SynHak not an > > > individual. I hope that everyone can understand the difference. > > > > You did. It went into SYNHAK's pile of hackable equipment. In the future, > > please let discuss@ know in advance and put some other sign on them if you > > don't want donations to be hacked, but have a specific purpose in mind. If > > no > > specific purpose is in mind, please ask discuss@ to see what people would > > want > > to do with them. Otherwise, that entire junk pile is fair game to all > > members > > of the hacker community, excluding those who have been banned from > > participating. > > > > > If the items were deemed limbo property when given, they are NOT a > > > charitable gift. I do feel that synhak should help others with equipment > > > either by releasing it to individuals (selling and/or giving), Loaning > > > (under the membership loan a tool plan), or retaining it for a fixed > > > community resource (like the welder or lathe or 3d Printer) > > > > While the junk pile /is/ free for anyone to take things from, they should > > only > > be taken out of the junk pile for the purpose of making. If someone takes > > it > > and uses it wholesale for their personal gain, thats not excellent. If > > someone > > wants to make or learn with what they see, they should be free to do so. > > That > > is SYNHAK's purpose. I'd consider that a charitable gift since it furthers > > SYNHAK's mission of providing to the general public and environment to > > "provide an environment for people to educate, create, and share amongst > > themselves and others within the domains of technology, art and science." > > > > > When I donate items to synhak I donate them to strengthen the > > > hackerspace > > > community. I know that others (like Omar and others) will take the > > > > precious > > > > > time to sift through it and determine a good communal use. This communal > > > use may support others to come to the space work on projects and provide > > > their support. Together we all support each other. > > > > Just so its clear, the hackerspace community is a lot more than the 16 > > members > > who pay dues. The discuss list has over 100 subscribers, and our meetings > > regularly get 25+ people showing up. > > > > > I see no reason that if a certain widget/part/item would help you in a > > > personal project why synhak (as a voting membership) would not grant > > > that > > > property to be yours forever. BUT I don't assume anything (except > > > consumables and items deemed JUNK) as to mine when I visit the space. I > > > have access to them, can use them (if trained) but I don't own them. > > > > There is a difference between property being dropped off in the junk pile > > and > > being directly integrated into the infrastructure of the hackerspace. > > > > > When I loan items to synhak (large fans and future items) I entrust the > > > community to be excellent and treat them like they would other more > > > expensive items (powertools, 3d printer, lathe) > > > > > > I hope everyone understands the place I am coming from even if you don't > > > see it the same way. > > > > I'm not sure you and I share the same definitions, so please tell me if > > I'm > > misunderstanding: > > > > "Hackerspace community", n - The people who use SYNHAK to be creative, > > whether > > it is through mailing list discussions, IRC conversations, experimenting > > with > > homebrewing, attending a class, or sharing ideas at a meeting. Able to > > exercise do-ocracy within the bounds of "Be Excellent to Each Other". > > Don't > > even need to be citizens of Earth, or biological constructs. > > > > "SYNHAK member", n - A subset of the above that has gone through the > > membership process. Doesn't get any special rights beyond being permitted > > to > > participate in our governance process through consensus, acceptance of new > > members to the governance process, holding office, key access, and minimal > > storage. > > > > "Donating to SYNHAK", v - Giving property to SYNHAK that further enables > > the > > organization's mission to provide an environment for people to educate, > > create, and share amongst themselves and others within the domains of > > technology, art, and science. > > > > "Tax deductable donation", n - A donation to SYNHAK that gets a reciept in > > return, and should be handled through the Treasurer. > > > > > /end rant > > > > > > Much Love > > > > > > Justin > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 7:57 PM, Torrie Fischer > > > > <tdfisc...@hackerbots.net>wrote: > > > > On Friday, December 06, 2013 15:43:22 Omar Rassi wrote: > > > > > Philip, > > > > > > > > > > First, you are right about the confusion about the junk pile and > > > > > > > > donations > > > > > > > > > pile. I discussed this with a Champion and we are clarifying this > > > > VERY > > > > > > soon > > > > > > > > > because it is very important to avoid this kind of confusion. > > > > Second, to > > > > > > > dispel any feeling that anyone was worried about you, that is false, > > > > I > > > > > > put > > > > > > > > > it back in the storage room because that is our storage room for > > > > member > > > > > > > projects and synhak property. The recent donations had not gone > > > > > their > > > > > because they had not been sorted yet. > > > > > > > > Except it isn't SYNHAK property. It is stuff that *nobody* wants to do > > > > anything with. If someone claims something from the donation pile, > > > > then > > > > they > > > > are free to do whatever they want with it, but it needs to leave that > > > > area. If > > > > their next step is to fit it into SYNHAK's infrastructure, then it > > > > remains > > > > > > SYNHAK's. > > > > > > > > If their next step is to make something, then I feel that they're free > > > > to > > > > > > claim it as their own, *regardless of membership status*. Seriously, > > > > you > > > > > > don't > > > > need to be a member to stop in one day of the year and happen to see > > > > the > > > > > > exact > > > > hardware that you need to finish your project. > > > > > > > > We are an infrastructure provider for creative people. Part of that > > > > infrastructure is having a physical location for people to drop off > > > > unused > > > > > > equipment and others to use it to continue to create. > > > > > > > > We are not an infrastructure provider for members of SYNHAK. Members > > > > of > > > > SYNHAK > > > > support the hackerspace. They are not the hackerspace. They provide > > > > the > > > > funds > > > > to keep the lights on and have the right to shape the space through > > > > direct > > > > > > involvement, as opposed to trying to convince someone who can to do it > > > > for > > > > > > them. > > > > > > > > > I was not able to get to the rest of the computing equipment until > > > > the > > > > > > > festivities were over and I have done so, though the desktops have > > > > not > > > > > > yet > > > > > > > > > been looked at. I have no issues with helping anyone with their > > > > computer > > > > > > > equipment and answering questions and I am more than happy to help > > > > you > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > your HP as I'm an experience repair technician however, that > > > > particular > > > > > > HP > > > > > > > > > that was in the donation pile is of great use to synhak and should > > > > not > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > been left at the junk pile (the differentiation between junk and > > > > > > > > donations > > > > > > > > > will be rectified). > > > > > > > > > > Of the donation of those computer equipment, I have already > > > > identified > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > things that going right back to the junk pile as it is just too old > > > > to > > > > > > > be > > > > > of use to synhak, newer equipment may be put to use as a computer, > > > > for a > > > > > > > project or resold to maintain our operating funds. I expect that > > > > > this > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > be an important topic of discussion this coming meeting, fleshing > > > > out a > > > > > > > clear and precise donation/scrapping procedure (I hate the word > > > > policy). > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > was a manager for a thrift store for a time so I'll see about > > > > drafting a > > > > > > > generic procedure for the membership to modify as we choose. > > > > > > > > > > The basic foundation of all donations to Synhak is that it belongs > > > > > to > > > > > Synhak until we (by we, I mean any member, it doesn't have to be me, > > > > > > > > I.E. A > > > > > > > > No. No, no, no, no. Please see above. The stuff in the junk pile is > > > > *not* > > > > > > automatically SYNHAK's property! Just because it shows up doesn't mean > > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > instantly part of our infrastructure. This is a very dangerous idea, > > > > as it > > > > > > restricts access to our resources to only people who pay their dues > > > > and > > > > have > > > > jumped through the hoops to become a full member. Again, > > > > infrastructure > > > > provider. Not members-only workshop. > > > > > > > > > member appropriated something from the recent donations for his own > > > > > > > > project > > > > > > > > > before I got a chance to look at it and therefore it is not included > > > > in > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > recent report) can determine their future purpose, we are not a > > > > > recycling > > > > > facility for e-waste, but will work with members, the community, and > > > > > > > > local > > > > > > > > > recycling centers to ensure all donations get maximum use/reuse. The > > > > > general public may then use recent donations during our open hours > > > > once > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > members have had enough time to figure out what these donations can > > > > be > > > > > > used > > > > > > > > > for, ALL of the equipment seen at synhak, computers, monitors, > > > > mixers, > > > > > > > soldering tools, welders, saws, power tools, projector, etc. were > > > > > donated > > > > > and then repaired/refurbished and then set up for public use. I > > > > promise > > > > > > > that everyone will get a chance to use donations including the > > > > general > > > > > > > public but we have to think about our members and our operating > > > > > costs > > > > > > > > first. > > > > > > > > That is not the protocol. If it is, please correct me so it can get > > > > changed > > > > through the proper channel of a proposal. > > > > > > > > > I sincerely apologize for the confusion this has caused and I feel > > > > > > > > horrible > > > > > > > > > for the disappointment. I am working as quickly as I can to sort the > > > > > equipment so they can be put to good use. > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Philip P. Patnode < > > > > ppatn...@gmail.com > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > *Suggestions for consideration by SYNHAK members -* > > > > > > > > > > > > *To avoid confusion, disappointment, and wasting time on projects > > > > that > > > > > > > > will never happen, I suggest that the JUNK PILE (clearly marked > > > > with a > > > > > > > > sign, usage policy established) be separated from the RECENT > > > > DONATIONS > > > > > > > > PILE > > > > > > (not marked, no policy) and I suggest **a formal SH policy be > > > > > > > > established > > > > > > > > > > for donations.* > > > > > > > > > > > > *In my opinion, two things need to happen at SYNHAK regarding > > > > future > > > > > > > > donations.* > > > > > > > > > > > > *One*, *the SH policy* on all donations - from any source, of any > > > > kind > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > needs to be clearly stated and communicated to all members and > > > > > > non-members, > > > > > > in print or by email or as added text on the SH webpage or all > > > > three. > > > > > > > > *Two*,* the physical location* at SH for recent hardware donations > > > > > > > > needs > > > > > > > > > > to be clearly marked with a sign/appropriate comments. For > > > > example, > > > > > > > > "Don't > > > > > > Take" or "Not Available" or "Death by Laser" or "To Be Evaluated" > > > > > > > > might be > > > > > > > > > > used to convey the message. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > ------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is the back story behind the suggestions. My apologies for > > > > the > > > > > > > > length and details necessary to tell the story. > > > > > > > > > > > > At about 7.15pm last night, because of the delay over the turkey > > > > > > > > cooking > > > > > > > > > > experiment, I spent some time taking a casual look at the contents > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > hardware junk pile near the entrance to the main room. Looked at > > > > and > > > > > > dug > > > > > > > > > > through lots of boxes and shelves full of stuff, all under a sign > > > > > > indicating that all of it was in the correct place - the Junk > > > > > > Pile. > > > > > > > > > > > > Much to my surprise, I found a HP g7 series laptop that was very > > > > > > > > similar > > > > > > > > > > to the HP g7-1019wm that I had brought with me to SH last night, > > > > > > in > > > > > > the > > > > > > hope of finding someone to help me diagnose/identify the problems > > > > and > > > > > > > > guide > > > > > > me through the repair process. The HP I brought is a personal > > > > laptop > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > not an item I plan to sell on eBay or Craigslist. It has a bad > > > > > > cooling > > > > > > fan > > > > > > (does not rotate - ever), a glitchy on/off switch, and two keys > > > > > > > > damaged - > > > > > > > > > > the K and the L, and maybe other problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > A long-time full member of SH (not to be named) stopped by to chat > > > > and > > > > > > > > discuss the situation with me. During the conversation, he made > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > > > clear that I could "claim" the donated item I found in the junk > > > > pile > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > use parts from it to fix my laptop. He was aware that I am not a > > > > > > sponsored > > > > > > member of SH, only a recent interested person who likes the > > > > concept of > > > > > > SH > > > > > > > > > > and has made an effort to swim with the rolling tide. As the > > > > turkey > > > > > > > > frying > > > > > > situation was still developing out on the loading deck, I spent > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > next > > > > > > > > > > 45 > > > > > > minutes doing some online research about the specs for both HP > > > > laptops > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > going through the HP support forums to read the comments about > > > > similar > > > > > > > > problems. I was on page two of my notes when a dark cloud appeared > > > > on > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > horizon. > > > > > > > > > > > > My joy of finding a possible solution to my laptop problem turned > > > > to > > > > > > > > serious disappointment and frustration when another long-time full > > > > > > > > member > > > > > > > > > > of SH (again, not to be named) approached and summarily declared > > > > that > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > donated item was not available to me or anyone else, but would be > > > > > > > > retained > > > > > > > > > > by SH to be diagnosed and possibly repaired and used by SH or sold > > > > for > > > > > > > > cash. There was no room allowed for any further discussion about > > > > the > > > > > > > > donated laptop. Do'ocracy in action? > > > > > > > > > > > > As a non-member, with no power, no influence, no ace-in-the-hole, > > > > and > > > > > > > > definitely no say about anything regarding anything at SH, I tried > > > > to > > > > > > > > minimize my comments and watched as the member picked up the > > > > > > laptop > > > > > > off > > > > > > the > > > > > > work area where I had it and proceeded to disassemble it on > > > > > > another > > > > > > > > bench, > > > > > > > > > > check out a few items, and put it back together again. He then > > > > moved > > > > > > to a > > > > > > > > > > back room, out of sight and out of reach, as if he was concerned > > > > that > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > would find a way back to the junk pile, or worse, out to someone's > > > > car > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > disappear forever. The series of actions by the member almost > > > > > > > > appeared > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > if he was worried I would run off with the donated HP moment he > > > > turned > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > > back on it, although I might be entirely in error about his > > > > thoughts > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > the > > > > > > matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > The names of the SH members who were involved are not essential to > > > > the > > > > > > > > issue and are not the basis for the suggestions. Personalities > > > > play > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > > part in my suggestion to take action on the matter of donations to > > > > SH. > > > > > > > > Only turkey feathers should be ruffled, as I am not making this > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > issue > > > > > > > > > > about any particular member. > > > > > > > > > > > > On a final note, I would consider buying the donated HP g7 series > > > > > > > > laptop > > > > > > > > > > from SH at a reasonable price to use for parts or repair, if it is > > > > > > available now or becomes available in the near future. > > > > > > > > > > > > In the meantime, I will avoid even looking at anything within 10ft > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > combo donations/junk pile. I don't want to get my hope up and > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > dashed again. > > > > > > > > > > > > Philip > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Discuss mailing list > > > > > > Discuss@synhak.org > > > > > > https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Discuss mailing list > > > > Discuss@synhak.org > > > > https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Discuss mailing list > > Discuss@synhak.org > > https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list Discuss@synhak.org https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
