We secondly need to address the scaling issues but if we're constantly proposing amendments to proposals when do we get to hack? Conversely if we're always trying to please everyone, when do we get to hack?
Also what happens when the proposal affects money? We can't always unspend it. Regards, Andrew L On Mar 19, 2014 1:24 AM, "Andrew Buczko" <a4s...@dsprototyping.com> wrote: > I do not see consensus working as the group grows larger, we need to vote > and be done with the mater at hand. > We can always write new proposals to deal with changes that come in the > future. > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 12:02 AM, Justin Herman <just...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> In the risk of sounding confrontational, you have asked for feedback... >> >> I have real reservations with this proposal. IMO this will create a >> blockade where the strong willed get their way and those with less time to >> commit to arguing will give up or quit synhak all together. Even with the >> limited blocking option added in I question WHY. Why should 1 person be >> able to hold the entire org hostage to make action? >> >> Voting does create a winning side and losing side. But it is fair. Every >> member in good standing is allowed 1 vote and only 1 vote. If the majority >> decides to accept a member why should one person get to decide that it >> should be blocked? One person does not decide the path of SynHak, the group >> does. Not everyone is going to be "happy" with all decisions. The path to >> playing nicely and being excellent is accepting that the group feels >> differently than you and moving forward. Not all decisions can be forced >> into consensus, esp when the group grows beyond a handful of people (as we >> have). Our views, disciplines, and experiences are diverse, let us accept >> that, hear the pov, and allow the voice of the group decide how we move >> forward. >> >> Our discussion process and proposal process provides for a clear and >> transparent method for showing different points of views even if all views >> are of the same opinion (OMG new person is super cool). Then the membership >> can make a decision with all views (members and non-members) expressed. >> >> Respectfully, >> >> Justin >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:31 PM, Torrie Fischer < >> tdfisc...@hackerbots.net> wrote: >> >>> >>> The last few membership applications and proposals we've had, we've >>> sometimes >>> used a vote, sometimes went with "does anyone raise issues"? >>> >>> This is going to be a bigger year for SYNHAK. I think we should consider >>> revisiting our consensus process to allow it to scale in a manner that >>> helps >>> to maintain our shared spirit of experimentation, openness, and the >>> triumvirate of Consensus, Do-ocracy, and Excellence. >>> >>> I feel that one such vector is by stepping away from the trend of having >>> simple majority voting, or rather, any kind of vagueness on the >>> definition of >>> consensus, as clearly evidenced in tonight's meeting. >>> >>> The original intent of our membership process was to "weed out the crazy >>> people". I think this should also be extended to include measures to >>> weed out >>> people that might not fully understand what it means to be a member of >>> SYNHAK >>> and have an active part in our governance process. I still maintain my >>> opinion >>> that you can be as member as you want to be, however I wouldn't want new >>> members joining the space that we don't all /not/ dislike. It causes >>> tension >>> and an increase in drama if there exists someone who creates pressure >>> points. >>> >>> The same goes for our proposal process. Traditionally its been used to >>> bring >>> about new rules, changes in protocol, etc. It often leads to a lot of >>> arguing >>> and assumption of personal attacks, acting in bad faith, and shouting >>> about >>> unexcellence. Voting always pits one side against another. It is an all >>> or >>> nothing system. >>> >>> The purpose of weeding out people and ideas not universally accepted as >>> contributing to our common vision, whatever that may be, is to ensure >>> that our >>> community works together as one. >>> >>> I'm not arguing that we shouldn't accept new members or ideas simply >>> because >>> not everyone agrees with them 100%. However, if someone in the >>> membership has >>> serious concerns about an applicant or proposal, I feel that there >>> should be a >>> mechanism that addresses those concerns and ensures that everyone >>> involved >>> ends up happy with the outcome, even if it is just one person. >>> >>> To use an extreme example: >>> >>> If we've got 100 members, and one knows that a new applicant is a >>> sociopath >>> who has been kicked out of a bunch of other area organizations before, I >>> think >>> they've got a right to step up and stop them from becoming a member. >>> >>> One person harboring bitter thoughts and resentment towards another does >>> not >>> make a healthy and vibrant community. To quote Omar, "We don't all have >>> to >>> like everyone, but we do need to get along." >>> >>> I would like to suggest that we adopt a modified consensus process in >>> the form >>> of blocking with explanation. Here's a suggested protocol: >>> >>> ---8<--- >>> * Proposals or membership applications may be accepted by the Membership >>> of >>> SYNHAK as >>> long as nobody blocks any such application. >>> * If a SYNHAK member wishes to block a membership application or >>> proposal, >>> they need to clearly state their reason for blocking. >>> ** Not everyone has to agree with the reason for a block to be valid, it >>> just >>> has to be clearly stated. >>> * Proposals and membership applications may be permitted to be blocked >>> at any >>> point up until the membership application or proposal is approved, for >>> as long >>> as six weeks. >>> * Proposals or membership applications may only be blocked for longer >>> than six >>> weeks if there is support from at least two other members, meaning that a >>> total of three members must clearly state that they are blocking and why. >>> * Blocked membership applications or proposals with the support of at >>> least >>> three total members may be blocked indefinitely. >>> --->8--- >>> >>> The purpose of a block is to prevent someone with some intense >>> reservations >>> against a proposal from feeling completely screwed over by everyone else. >>> >>> If a total of three people (out of our current 20) share the same serious >>> reservations, I think they all should have the right to not experience an >>> environment that they do not feel comfortable with. >>> >>> In essence, this is a written protocol that defines how we come to >>> Consensus. >>> >>> In closing, I want to remind everyone that we are building SYNHAK >>> *together*. >>> We want to create an inclusive and welcoming environment that fosters >>> creativity. Using voting to decide how SYNHAK runs will *always* >>> steamroll >>> someone, without exception. If there is a method for us to avoid >>> conflict and >>> squashing others because a few people don't like the idea, it is >>> necessary >>> that we consider it. >>> >>> Thoughts and feedback, please! >>> >>> Let me repeat that again, >>> >>> *THOUGHTS AND FEEDBACK, PLEASE!* >>> >>> To reiterate: >>> >>> READ THIS VVVVVV READ THIS >>> >>> >>> I am requesting that we discuss this proposal, as it is the spirit and a >>> core >>> value of SYNHAK that we all come to a common agreement where nobody gets >>> hurt. >>> >>> >>> READ THIS ^^^^^^ READ THIS >>> >>> I hope I was clear in stating that I am open to reaching consensus on >>> this. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Discuss mailing list >>> Discuss@synhak.org >>> https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Discuss mailing list >> Discuss@synhak.org >> https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Discuss mailing list > Discuss@synhak.org > https://synhak.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss >
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