+1 isort -1 black I think that codestyle checkers are better, because you teach yourself proper style for python.
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:17 PM Josh Smeaton <josh.smea...@gmail.com> wrote: > We aren't talking about code minifiers though, are we? We're talking about > a very specific tool with very specific rules. No one will ever agree on > one specific code style, which is why subjectivity is anti-productive. > Black chooses a specific set of rules and removes ambiguity. Some choices > will be agreeable, others will not be. And the ones that are agreeable > aren't agreeable to every person. > > > and code passed through autoformatters (especially if author _didn't > think_ about style) is harder to understand then written by thinking humans > > I find this statement to be mostly incorrect with regard to Black. There > are edge cases, but they are few. > > On Wednesday, 17 April 2019 09:45:11 UTC+10, Ivan Anishchuk wrote: >> >> Yeah, it's very common to confuse style with formatting. Not having to >> think is a productivity win when and only when you don't care about your >> product's quality (in which case I'd suggest using generators and stop >> thinking about code altogether). Language is a communication tool, a >> programming language is a tool programmers use to talk to each other, and >> code passed through autoformatters (especially if author _didn't think_ >> about style) is harder to understand then written by thinking humans. It's >> pretty much like trying to stop thinking about style in English -- by using >> some processor to put your commas and whitespace in place you can generate >> something that is usually possible to understand, at least for the most >> part, but that and _good style_ would still be worlds apart (yes, natural >> languages are different, it's much easier to make things worse there, but >> it's not any easier to make things better in programming languages). >> >> There are situations where compromising style for formatting is >> acceptable and even a good idea, I don't think here is one of them. >> Removing a significant expressive tool from a language just to ensure your >> whitespace is arranged according to some arbitrary rules is about as >> counter-productive and pointless as it can get. Not because sometimes it >> produces some bad results but exactly because it prevents humans from >> thinking and expressing themselves properly. What would you think about >> some processor renaming all your variables so that you don't have to think >> about naming them? Must be even better for productivity. >> >> Ivan. >> >> On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 12:35 AM Josh Smeaton <josh....@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Ivan, what you’re talking about is subjective code formatting, and lends >>> itself to extreme bikeshedding and little consensus. Django already has a >>> formatting standard that mergers try to enforce at review and commit time. >>> But it’s time consuming, prone to missing things, and requires lots of back >>> and forth. >>> >>> Not having to think of formatting at all, either as a developer or >>> reviewer, is a major productivity win. Even if some of the formatting >>> choices are not agreeable. >>> >>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 03:38, 'Ivan Anishchuk' via Django developers >>> (Contributions to Django itself) <django-d...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>> >>>> My two cents: black's mostly ok but I'm against any auto-formatting. >>>> Code style is much more than whitespace arrangement, it requires looking, >>>> creative thinking, judging, and sometimes actually compromising rules and >>>> looks for readability while the usual attitude with such tools is "I have >>>> this autoformatter tool so I don't have to think about style anymore, see, >>>> all my whitespace is nice and shining". Using some helpers in your favorite >>>> editor is great but relying on automatics without looking is almost >>>> completely counter-productive. >>>> >>>> I find that PR autocommenter is a great way to keep issues detectable >>>> by flake8/pylint to a minimum. >>>> >>>> Ivan. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 6:35 PM Herman S <herman....@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi. >>>>> >>>>> I propose that Django starts using 'black' [0] to auto-format all >>>>> Python code. >>>>> For those unfamiliar with 'black' I recommend reading the the projects >>>>> README. >>>>> The short version: it aims to reduce bike-shedding and non value-adding >>>>> discussions; saving time reviewing code; and making the barrier to >>>>> entry lower >>>>> by taking some uncompromissing choices with regards to formatting. >>>>> This is >>>>> similar to tools such as 'gofmt' for Go and 'prettier' for Javascript. >>>>> >>>>> Personally I first got involved contributing to Django couple of weeks >>>>> back, >>>>> and from anecdotal experience I can testify to how 'formatting of >>>>> code' creates >>>>> a huge barrier for entry. My PR at the time went multiple times back >>>>> and forth >>>>> tweaking formatting. Before this, I had to research the style used by >>>>> exploring >>>>> the docs at length and reading at least 10-20 different source – and >>>>> even those >>>>> were not always consistent. At the end of the day I felt like almost >>>>> 50% of the >>>>> time I used on the patch was not used on actually solving the issue at >>>>> hand. >>>>> Thinking about code formatting in 2019 is a mental energy better used >>>>> for other >>>>> things, and it feels unnecessary that core developers on Django spend >>>>> their time >>>>> "nit-picking" on these things. >>>>> >>>>> I recently led the efforts to make this change where I work. We have a >>>>> 200K+ >>>>> LOC Django code-base with more than 30K commits. Some key take-aways: >>>>> it has >>>>> drastically changed the way we work with code across teams, new >>>>> engineers are >>>>> easier on-boarded, PR are more focused on architectural choices and >>>>> "naming >>>>> things", existing PRs before migration had surprisingly few conflicts >>>>> and were >>>>> easy to fix, hot code paths are already "blameable" and it's easy to >>>>> blame a >>>>> line of code and go past the "black-commit", and lastly the migration >>>>> went >>>>> without any issues or down-time. >>>>> >>>>> I had some really fruitful discussions at DjangoCon Europe this week >>>>> on this >>>>> very topic, and it seems we are not alone in these experiences. I >>>>> would love to >>>>> hear from all of you and hope that we can land on something that will >>>>> enable >>>>> *more* people to easier contribute back to this project. >>>>> >>>>> I've set up how this _could_ look depending on some configurables in >>>>> Black: >>>>> >>>>> * Default config: https://github.com/hermansc/django/pull/1 >>>>> * Line length kept at 119: https://github.com/hermansc/django/pull/3 >>>>> * Line length kept at 119, no string normalization: >>>>> https://github.com/hermansc/django/pull/2 >>>>> >>>>> Please have a look at the Black documentation. It explains the >>>>> benefits better >>>>> than I possibly could do here. >>>>> >>>>> With kind regards, >>>>> Herman Schistad >>>>> >>>>> [0]: https://github.com/ambv/black >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to django-d...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to django-d...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/django-developers. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAN%3DnMTx0EE5WfXuccv_e3MBuCxp9u_pAV_ow5MxNST6MptTDBw%40mail.gmail.com >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >>>> Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/django-developers/wK2PzdGNOpQ/unsubscribe >>>> . >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>>> django-d...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to django-d...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/django-developers. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CADPNjZ7ZUbZ_Bk77urc0TU7XfspdBiQGCiAUeSc84pTN-%2BcGkw%40mail.gmail.com >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CADPNjZ7ZUbZ_Bk77urc0TU7XfspdBiQGCiAUeSc84pTN-%2BcGkw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to django-d...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to django-d...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/django-developers. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAPbDM0db6YKRAfmZjGbRHXY4kcf5iqULrQ2aVxLxkOTkH%3DUPWg%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAPbDM0db6YKRAfmZjGbRHXY4kcf5iqULrQ2aVxLxkOTkH%3DUPWg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/django-developers. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/0fd5f210-1b79-4cce-947e-d8f4e132fd69%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/0fd5f210-1b79-4cce-947e-d8f4e132fd69%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. 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