Just my 2 cents on this discussion as a junior contributor. I am very fond of how inclusive and progressive the Django community is. With that said, I believe that we shall definitely try to stop using the term blacklist for “bad/unwanted” things. If this change makes even only a few contributors, more comfortable, I think we should move forward with the same.
Thanks Sanskar On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 12:30, Jure Erznožnik <jure.erznoz...@gmail.com> wrote: > +1 on this discussion progression. I too struggled with certain > expressions in my earlier English-learning days, but today the used > expressions don't carry any unnecessary baggage for me as my understanding > of them is purely technical. So, while I myself don't have a problem with > them, I can see that others might. > > I'd also dare to say there shouldn't be much flak to take anyway. The > cause seems OK, but there is heightened pressure due to recent events. I > would say this alone is the only thing that I see might be an issue: why > exactly now? > > LP, > Jure > On 15/06/2020 23:31, Aymeric Augustin wrote: > > Hello, > > In the context of access control, blacklist / whitelist makes sense only > if the reader has a preconceived assumption that black = bad, illegal, > forbidden / white = good, legal, authorized. You can probably see where I'm > going. > > Sure, blacklist / whitelist has nothing to do with race to start with, but > I find the parallel with Apartheid sufficiently obvious to make it > embarrassing, certainly because I'm not a native English speaker and I > don't have enough background on what has racial overtones and what doesn't. > > I mean, I had been living in the US for several months whet someone had to > tell me the difference between "to screw" and "to screw up". (I'm > grateful.) Do you really expect a guy like me to know that "blackface" has > racial overtones but "blacklist" doesn't, and thus interpret the words > correctly? > > Besides, the connection didn't exist in the first place, but when people > start making it, can we still pretend it doesn't exist? If I wanted to > troll a linguist, I'd say it's akin to pretending that words people > actually use don't exist until they're written in a dictionary ;-) > > Lastly, another argument for the statu quo is that humans are good at > interpreting words based on context, so "black" in "blacklist" isn't a > problem. However, I counter that humans are even better at making > connections and detecting patterns, even subconsciously and sometimes even > when the pattern doesn't actually exist. That's quite likely to happen here. > > I agree that this isn't as clear cut as master / slave. That must be why > it took us six years to go from the master / slave discussion to the > blacklist / whitelist discussion. > > No one's gonna get confused on the meaning regardless of whether we make > the change or not. This is "just" a political marker. It doesn't have one > correct answer. It has several answers whose correctness vary over time. > > I think we'll make the change at some point. Some progressives will hate > us for taking so much time. Some conservatives will hate us for being > snowflakes. Since we already started spending time on this discussion, we > might just as well do the change while we're there, take some flak for a > couple days, and move on. > > Best regards, > > -- > Aymeric. > > On 15 Jun 2020, at 21:56, Daniele Procida <dani...@vurt.org> wrote: > > Tom Carrick wrote: > > I don't think there is an easy answer here, and I open this can of worms > somewhat reluctantly. I do think Luke is correct that we should be > concerned with our credibility if we wrongly change this, but I'm also > worried about our credibility if we don't. > > > There are plenty of black-something terms in English that are both > negative and have nothing whatsoever to do with race. The black and the > dark are those things that are hidden and sinister, as contrasted with > those that are in the light and open to scrutiny (black magic, dark arts, > black legs, blackguards, blackmail, etc). > > I think it would look pretty silly to confuse meanings that refer to > what's shadowy and obscure with things that have racial overtones, and I > think we should steer well clear of that. It's not at all like metaphors > such as master/slave. > > If we made such a change and tried to justify it on the grounds of a > connection between race and the word "black" in those terms, we'd be > rightly laughed at. > > 1000 neckbeards would immediately come out of the woodwork having done > some basic web searches going 'neeer neeer neeer, the Django Software > Foundation overflowing with snowflakes who think that "blacklist" means > [etc etc etc]', and who has the stomach for that? > > Even choosing to do it on the basis of the potential for offence seems to > be a fairly flimsy argument. > > On the other hand, we can do whatever the hell we like. > > We don't have to justify anything to anyone. If we want to change words in > *our* framework, it's absolutely nobody's business but our own. > > If black members of the DSF or the community are disheartened that the > word "black" gets to refer to so many negative things and are bothered when > they see them in Django, then that alone is sufficient justification. > > If we want a reason for changing "blacklist" (or whatever), it's that > people in our community said they would feel better about it and asked to > have it changed. > > Acknowledging how someone feels about something and acting because you > care about their feelings seems to be a respectful thing to do. > > "We did it because we felt like it" is an utterly unanswerable > justification. > > The DSF has credibility because the software is first rate, the foundation > is well-governed and the community is an international example of decency > and kindness. Things like this become credible because the DSF chooses to > do them - it's not the other way round. > > Daniele > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/20200615195628.938692561%40mail.gandi.net > . > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/4FC8DDEB-2A3C-4B31-9265-D07F28D6CFCA%40polytechnique.org > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/4FC8DDEB-2A3C-4B31-9265-D07F28D6CFCA%40polytechnique.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/0a78ec9c-4837-fb3b-6aa6-9497def4de65%40gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/0a78ec9c-4837-fb3b-6aa6-9497def4de65%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group. 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