On 17 Nov 2002 20:00:23 -0500, Elliot Cramer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> In sci.stat.edu Radford Neal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> : You don't know what you are talking about.  There are many, many
> : situations in which data is analysed when there are more variables
> : than observations.  
> 
> but if you know anything about statistics, you don't analyze them as 
> variables but condense them based on your knowledge to many fewer 
> variables than observations
> 
> 
> : The absurdity of saying you can't do anything with more variables than
> : observations is well illustrated by the case of spectroscopic data,
> : where the number of variables is just the number of frequencies (or
> : that you have to throw away the extra data from the better instrument
> : before analysing it.
> see above
> 
> : PCA isn't necessarily the best way of analysing such data, but it
> : isn't senseless.
> 
> It's senseless

When I saw a PCA  on power-spectral data, the first components
were - neatly - the overall power, the frequency (linear trend), 
the quadratic, and so on.  The result wasn't senseless.  
Maybe it was best to look at it as confirmation, or as a source
of coefficients.  In fact, I still wonder how much use it would 
have been,  if the "sense"  had not been obvious.

For the same data, (I'm not sure, but) I think would be
a mistake to use *all*  the components if you are comparing
to new data.  The fit that was achieved was necessarily,
arbitrarily  perfect.  

On the other hand, for the data from genetic micro-arrays,
and other bio-assays, I have been assuming that PCA
would give little help.  I guess, when I wonder some more,
I can accept the possibility, if the samples are big enough.  
But I think they are stuck with a lot of separate assays.

Also, p-levels of statistical tests are misleading when the 
observed proportions have a huge range:  The experiment 
has practically no test-power for a gene that is seldom seen.
I have figured that they do a lot of tabulation of "perfect-but-rare
-prediction"  in order to get candidates.  Eventually, with 
tons of data in hand, they will have to do a heck-of-a-lot 
of Bonferroni correction.

-- 
Rich Ulrich, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.pitt.edu/~wpilib/index.html
.
.
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