In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
dennis roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>At 08:16 PM 2/11/2003, Herman Rubin wrote:
>>It should not be accomplishment, but knowledge and the
>>ability to use it, which counts. It is a waste of time
>>and other resources for a student to work very hard and
>>get an A, rather than learning twice as much and getting
>>B's at it.
>for the life of me, i am having a problem understanding your logic ... who
>says a student does NOT learn twice as much by working that much harder to
>get an A ... than say a B?
No; the additional work gets more speed, and a few less
errors, but not much greater understanding of the concepts.
>let's just look at your statement ...
>" ... It is a waste of time
>and other resources for a student to work very hard and
>get an A, .... "
>pray tell, why?
See the above. Let the student take twice as much.
>>The idea that students should be taking the same material
>>at a given age, or even at a given stage of development,
>>needs to be completely removed from being considered as
>>"educational". They should be taking material individualized
>>for them.
>sure, in theory but, the pragmatics of education ... essentially forbids it
>... just can't be done ...
The pragmatics of education more than 70 years ago in the
elementary schools, and more than 50+ years ago in the
high schools, did not forbid it at all. It was somewhat
limited by the limitations of technology, but the schools
were, at that time, curriculum oriented, and those who
could not do it could not proceed, and skipping was not
only permitted but encouraged.
>>If a course is too easy, move the student to another one,
>>or allow early completion. If it is too difficult, slow
>>it down, or if that does not work, drop it.
>sounds so easy but ... is it? you get a batch of students first day in your
>course ... now, what do you do with them? you could give some pretest ...
>and those who are very high ... kick them out ... those who are very low
>... do the same ... but, YOU are not the only one running the system ...
>the student needs 3 credits ... are you going to be able to self tailor
>where this student goes if you bounce them from the class?
The first change which needs to be made is to abolish the
grade-credit system. I know why it was instituted, but it
can only work if lowering the level of a course is considered
a major felony.
in addition, who
>says the instructor has THE right ... to make a decision about if a student
>stays or goes ... ?
The instructor does not have the right. But the instructor
should have the obligation to teach the course at the level
for which it is intended, no matter who is in the classroom.
And the instructor should have the right to give the student
credit for knowing the material, no matter how it is learned.
For those who need a small part of the material, arrange to
give the credit by examination after study, and advise the
student to take something else. For those who can only
manage the material with additional time, reduce their course
loads; the purpose of a school should be education, not the
attaining of credits at a given rate.
sure, if they turn into a disciplinary case ...
>especially at the college level ... kick em out but ... short of that ...
>who says they don't have a right to be in your class?
They can be in the class, but they should be put on notice that
they are not getting the education they can manage. As one of
my colleagues stated,
Education is the one thing which people will pay for
and try not to get their money's worth.
>in the public schools, schedules are very tight and the degrees of freedom
>are very limited
There is nothing to prevent children from being in classes
other than with their age group.
As they are now, I see no possibility of the public schools
providing more than a fair-to-poor education for those of
somewhat below average intelligence, and it goes downhill
from there. The only quick (in a decade or so) improvement
which I can see is to make it financially ruinous for school
personnel to delay the academic progress of a child for age
or social development or other such reason.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Deptartment of Statistics, Purdue University
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
.
.
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