Bill:
I had always assumed similar to you; that the plane overshot the desired touchdown point and then just did a rather nice flat float into the trees. However, the document said that this was a take-off crash, with several factors added to make it more difficult (center of gravity, engine power, hydraulic fault). The report talks about severe pitch and roll issues (>30 degree nose up) that happened before the video record that we see. The preceding seconds of that take-off was a very wild event; it would be interesting to see the full video. Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com <blocked::mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com> WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military & Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bill Owsley Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:45 PM To: Pettit, Ghery; John M Woodgate; EMC-PSTC Subject: Re: [PSES] Toyota -- Comment on Software and Electronics for Safety I think I recall that video from years ago. If so, I thought it came in high and stayed high when it should have touched down on pavement WAY earlier which would have triggered the reverse thrusters and brakes, etc. with a final rollout at the camera location for successful landing -ta dah! It looked more like an altitude setting wrong, and the plane stayed on the glide path but the low wing configuration has interesting phenomena of 'floating' on the pressure wave just before touch down, makes for a softer more often touchdown, but that takes correct altitude settings and throttle back and such to drop through the float. The ILS should have indicated beginning runway and initiated such proceedings, or too high to make runway and gone to flyby settings. Maybe an unaccounted for tailwind, and several other "assumed" nominal settings could have conspired to have sent the airplane further down the runway than intended. We should have seen a plane passing by on afterburners, or a fine rollout. Maybe the crew was the "first" ones to fly a recent purchase off the ground, sort of like the "second" crew the drove the fancy luxury liner into the blast barrier at near launch speed that we seen the photos of. - Bill In the event of a national emergency, click on the following links to provide directions to your duly elected mis-representative. http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml or... https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm ________________________________ From: "Pettit, Ghery" <ghery.pet...@intel.com> To: John M Woodgate <j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk>; EMC-PSTC <emc-p...@ieee.org> Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 7:38:03 PM Subject: RE: [PSES] Toyota -- Comment on Software and Electronics for Safety This has been well discussed in aviation circles. The fly by wire systems in the Airbus will not allow the pilots direct control. The pilot tells the computer what he wants to do and the flight rules programmed into the computer limit the aircraft to a certain performance envelope. In the Paris incident the pilots tried to exceed the performance envelope to clear the trees and the computer wouldn't let them. I've seen video of the crash. Not good. Ghery S. Pettit From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John M Woodgate Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 4:26 PM To: EMC-PSTC Subject: Re: [PSES] Toyota -- Comment on Software and Electronics for Safety In message <d500012385dca64883637ab4ccf491e30134c...@ms-cda-02.advanced-input.com>, "McInturff, Gary" <gary.mcintu...@esterline.com> writes >They got to the end of the pass saw the trees and tried to pull up, but >the software looked at the flight envelope and said no because the low >airspeed meant that they were at a critical point on the flight >envelope and raising the nose at that speed would put it too close to >the stall point of the aircraft. I certainly wasn't involved in the >crash investigation rather having just read this is some journal >somewhere - so I certainly could have this wrong - but like I said - as >I understand it. Even so, if it is true, it shows that the software just wasn't intelligent, or, more likely, informed enough to cope with the situation. It didn't know about the trees, but if it did know, it should have allowed a low-angle climb to clear them. It must be a general principle that if a quasi-intelligent system does not know a key fact, it may implement a dangerous sequence of actions. What you don't know will kill you. -- This is my travelling signature, adding no superfluous mass. John M Woodgate - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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