Indeed... the protection scheme that passes Safety, causes the system to 'fail safe' which does not meet the EMC immunity requirements. The previous 'remove the protection from the circuit for the hi-pot test' seem to have been removed. Now the IGBT's serve to cause the fuse to go open, which is fine for the Safety guys.
>________________________________ > From: "McInturff, Gary" <gary.mcintu...@esterline.com> >To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG >Sent: Monday, September 9, 2013 11:42 AM >Subject: Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains > > > > >Yet another example that transistors and IC’s were invented to protect fuses >and surge protectors. > >Gary > >From:Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] >Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 8:31 AM >To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG >Subject: Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains > >What are the safety considerations using gas tubes on the AC mains? Do you >have to fuse them or are they not likely to fail shorted? Can you use them >between line and PE? Do you have to use multiple parts in series? I often see >them in series with MOVs in a “T” configuration to protect against line to >line and line to PE surges. > >A few year back we had a product that had several surge suppression circuits >located on different PC boards within (some assemblies were very expensive and >we wanted to protect them). Well, at our customer site they experienced some >kind of huge surge, transient or overvoltage (we do not know what exactly >happened). Of all the equipment that was on-site including many of our >competitors equipment, only our instrument was damaged. Our surge suppressors >were blown up, charred, and/or vaporized. The warranty repair cost was >$10,000US but the hit to our reputation was probably worst. We believed that >our equipment probably protected all the other equipment on-site but it is >hard to get your customers to believe you. So now we want to better control >our surge protection and if we see a huge surge we hope it to destroy >something much less expensive to replace or at least minimize the damage. > >What we are currently thinking is to use over the counter Surge Suppressor >modules, but they are only good to about 3KV – 4KV. Then we thought we would >add a spark-gap in the board that would only kick in if our surge suppressors >failed. Maybe we can add some very high voltage Gas Tubes also or instead of >the spark-gap. I’m not sure what more we can do. Many of the >circuits/assemblies we are trying to protect are buy/sell components where we >do not control spacings. > >Any comments? > >Thanks to all. > >The Other Brian > >From:Anthony Thomson [mailto:ton...@europe.com] >Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 4:18 AM >To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG >Subject: Re: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains > >Hello Brian, > >I've employed spark gaps, like you, not because you 'have' to but because it >seemed good practice. It involved a control installation with cables strung >externally. > >My advice is to use propriatory discharge tubes. They're cheap and their >performance is more predictable than engineering your own air gap across PCB >tracks or using pointy pins and are much less influenced physical and >environmental conditions such as temperature and humidity, etc. And should >they ever be needed, the consequences can be much less messy. > >I found a good selection available and looked at PCB mounting tubes with >breakdown voltages of between 3 and 12 kV. I finally used 4kV, 5kA/10kA (10/1 >discharges) devices having been influenced by what professional LAN & GPS >installers were using which largely ranged between 3 and 6 kV. > >Just my thoughts. >T > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >>From: Kunde, Brian >>Sent: 09/06/13 04:56 PM >>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG >>Subject: [PSES] Spark Gap PCB Layout on AC Mains >> >>Our engineers are working on an AC Mains Distribution PCB. Like most >>electronic devices, we have seen the damage caused by lightning strikes. So >>we are increasing our creepage and clearance distances as wide as we can and >>still meet other requirements. >> >>But no matter what spacing you design to, there is a lightning bolt out there >>that will exceed the design and it will arc somewhere. So the question came >>up to whether it makes sense to deliberately make a weak spot, or an area >>where the clearance is slightly smaller to control where a lightning/surge >>pulse will arc and/or discharge, like a Spark-Gap. >> >>I have seen spark-gap lay outs on PC boards on I/O connectors; usually for >>ESD protection, but not on AC Mains. Is this a bad bad idea or something >>worth doing? Pros and Cons? Other suggestions?? >> >>Thanks to all for your help. >> >>The Other Brian >> >>________________________________ >> >>LECO Corporation Notice:This communication may contain confidential >>information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by >>mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. >>- >>---------------------------------------------------------------- >>This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >>discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to >><emc-p...@ieee.org> >>All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >>http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html >>Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at >>http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used >>formats), large files, etc. >>Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ >>Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html >>List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >>For help, send mail to the list administrators: >>Scott Douglas <emcp...@radiusnorth.net> >>Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> >>For policy questions, send mail to: >>Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> >>David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> > >- >---------------------------------------------------------------- >This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to ><emc-p...@ieee.org> >All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html >Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at >http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used >formats), large files, etc. >Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ >Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) >List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >For help, send mail to the list administrators: >Scott Douglas <emcp...@radiusnorth.net> >Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> >For policy questions, send mail to: >Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> >David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> > >________________________________ > >LECO Corporation Notice:This communication may contain confidential >information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by >mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. >- >---------------------------------------------------------------- >This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to ><emc-p...@ieee.org> >All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html >Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at >http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used >formats), large files, etc. >Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ >Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) >List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >For help, send mail to the list administrators: >Scott Douglas <emcp...@radiusnorth.net> >Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> >For policy questions, send mail to: >Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> >David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - >---------------------------------------------------------------- > >This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to ><emc-p...@ieee.org> >All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html >Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at >http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used >formats), large files, etc. >Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ >Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) >List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >For help, send mail to the list administrators: >Scott Douglas <emcp...@radiusnorth.net> >Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> >For policy questions, send mail to: >Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> >David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <emcp...@radiusnorth.net> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
