You left off arguably the biggest reason, - What’s a risk assessment?; they don’t know they should be doing one.
-Dave From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 2:14 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety standards versus safety engineering Good evening My “ three pennyth” / “few cents worth” – for what they are worth ☺: Regardless of what product or system is under discussion, there is rarely (if ever?) a rationale for not doing relevant risk assessments - what may put some people off doing it, or doing it properly, could be (in no particular order, and there are probably many more!) any or all of the following: - They don’t know which risk assessment standard/methodology to apply - They don’t believe it is necessary or would help - They don’t actually know what it involves in respect of their product - They believe the product already complies with a “standard” and that is “good enough” – even if that standard has no overt risk assessment requirements - They think they already know what the risks are, and what they have already done to mitigate them is “good enough”, and so any chance of a real accident is remote to “impossible” - They don’t think wider than their own “box” in terms of the effects it could have on other “boxes” with which it might be, or conceivably be used, and/or by whom - They think risk assessment only applies to basic occupational safety (health & hygiene, climbing ladders, manual handling, etc.) within their premises or domain – and that’s someone else’s responsibility - They don’t want to risk finding out something that they really won’t like - The “guy at the top” believes one or more of the above will cause him more harm than good, and cost him a lot of time and money in the process, and won’t sanction it even when his employees state clearly that it is necessary - The “guy at the top” is working to tight time/cost targets and means to “get the job done” regardless of anything else – and then deal with any “consequences” later - The “guy at the top” has no concept of risk assessment, and what can result if you don’t do (and properly) - The “guy at the top” believes that “the insurance will cover any consequences” - The “guy at the top” has no understanding failure to take the right actions could result in criminal prosecutions – including of himself - The “guy at the top” is a “cowboy”, pure and simple (and I’ve met a few of those in my time!) Why have I said all these “obvious” things that I think we have all encountered some time / somewhere? Because I think they encompass many of the reasons given in the earlier posts as to why risk assessments are not done, or are not done appropriately (and I have avoided the word “correctly” because I don’t think there could ever be a “correct” risk assessment in absolute terms!). Therefore if you made up a checklist something like the above, then maybe you could begin to identify why some companies do, or don’t do, the appropriate risk assessments, see where the drop-offs could be fixed, and try to overcome any opposition to doing them as/where/how appropriate. John Allen W.London, UK From: dward [mailto:dw...@pctestlab.com] Sent: 06 March 2015 18:15 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety standards versus safety engineering “Risk Assessment” or in plain English – How many people have to get injured or killed before anything is done that should have been done in the beginning anyway. Dennis Ward This communication and its attachements contain information from PCTEST Engineering Laboratory, Inc., and I sintended for the exclusive use of the recipient(s) named above. It may contain information that is confidential and/or legally privileged. Any unauthorized use that may compromise that confidentiality via distribution or disclosure is prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately if you receive this communication in error, and delete it from your computer system. Usage of PCTEST email addresses for non-business related activities is strictly prohibited. No warranty is made that the e-mail or attachments(s) are free from computer virus or other defect. Thank you. From: Douglas Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, March 6, 2015 10:03 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety standards versus safety engineering Mike, "...dismissal of identifiable risks..." Isn't this the main problem with Risk Assessment in general. The people assigned to identify risks and catalog their risk values are almost always the same ones who design and built the product. The same goes for FMEA, and PFMEA. The assignment of risk values is very subjective, allowing those involved to say "the chances of that happening are ____". And the team agrees to set the likelihood of occurrence very low. I watched exactly this scenario occur in real life when through a chain of events a 7,000 CFM cooling fan was activated while a worker had his hands in the exhaust duct. 1) He should not have been working in there with power applied, 2) Communications to the Xylinx fan controller had been established through the company ethernet, 3) The default IP address of the controller had not been changed, 4) The digital engineer was working on a similar proto board, in another office building, with the same default IP address configured on his board, 5) The proto board was connected to the same network, as is their usual practice, 6) The digital engineer enabled the fan on his proto board and simultaneously enabled the fan in the unit on the manufacturing floor to full speed. Risk Assessment said this was very unlikely event and the technician nearly paid for it. The mitigation was to simply reassign the IP address for every circuit board on receipt at incoming inspection and to reinforce LOTO safety procedures on the shop floor. Oh, and by the way, this product was already fully certified to applicable standards. Thanks, - doug Douglas Powell Skype: doug.powell52 http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 From: Mike Sherman ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, March 6, 2015 10:17 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Reply To: msherma...@comcast.net<mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety standards versus safety engineering Re "...and dismissal of identifiable risks deemed conveniently unlikely to occur." This is a real issue in organizations, and was a key contributor to the Columbia space shuttle disaster. NASA's Columbia Accident Investigation Board's final report explores this contributor a lot. The report is easy to find on the web. As safety professionals, we are more effective if we understand the psychology that makes such dismissal attractive and learn to counteract it. Mike Sherman Graco Inc. ________________________________ From: "CR" <k...@earthlink.net<mailto:k...@earthlink.net>> To: "EMC-PSTC" <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>> Sent: Friday, March 6, 2015 6:46:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety standards versus safety engineering On 3/6/2015 2:56 AM, John Woodgate wrote: > Making the designers responsible for the safety of the design (as > opposed to the safety of what is shipped, over which they have no > control) immediately eliminates any claim that it's not their problem > and/or cramps their style. I'm not a Safety Engineer; my work is in EMC but... Some years ago, after the EU tripled the immunity requirement for medical equipment, I had occasion to speak with a management type complaining that a test plan I'd written required them to do tests no other firm did, and would place them at a competitive disadvantage. Asked why, I said: "Because I don't want you to kill people whose lives you're trying to save." * End of discussion. * For an example of what I was thinking about, see number 3 Banana Skin at /http://www.compliance-club.com/archive/old_archive/Bananaskins.htm/ . In any event no one had HAD to test to those levels before, and he didn't want to start. It seems to me that many firms waste and disparage the pride its own engineering staff takes in work they do, binding it in a web of Six Sigma process control inapplicable to creative work, and grinding it away with a wheel made equally of cost cutting and dismissal of identifiable risks deemed conveniently unlikely to occur. That may be another topic. Cortland Richmond - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org<mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org<mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org<mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com<mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org<mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org<mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org<mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com<mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org<mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org<mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org<mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com<mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org<mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org<mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org<mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com<mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org<mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org<mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org<mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com<mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
