I don’t think anybody is arguing that the vehicle will make worse decisions than a human driver. The issue I am trying to bring up is that the “blame” for any incidents that occur will get shifted. Humans will end up making a decision on who the machines are to operate and how fault is to be determined. Humans will cede control of an individual vehicle to an automated system. However, will humans cede control of the larger driving environment to completely automated decisions? We already get people who fight red light cameras arguing that the automated system shouldn’t be used to assign fault. It may be an excuse to get out of a ticket, but it also shows some of human nature.
Humans will create the system, but humans are terrible at assessing risk and most think they are better at it than they actually are. Humans tend to think the risk is lower when they are in control than when the risk is out of their control. I have a friend who is worried about the risk of terrorism at their place of work. However, the same person just moved, increasing their one-way commute from 2 miles to 22 miles. The actual risk of death is much higher from the long commute, but this person feels that they have control and doesn’t see the longer drive as a risk. Do you want to cede societal norms and rules completely to automated systems? A computer making decisions may decide that humans are part of the problem. Will we end up with Asimov’s three laws of robotics or the Terminator and Skynet? Ted Eckert The opinion express do not necessarily reflect those of my employer, Sarah Conner, HAL or R. Susan Calvin. -----Original Message----- From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] Sent: Monday, November 7, 2016 2:36 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Automated vehicles. LMAO…. There was great consternation of the human suitability for control of vehicular machinery upon the increasing popularity of automobiles. For most of these contrived situations, the bottom line is the machine would probably make a better decision than a human. And a machine would be less apt to enter in a situation where these types of decisions would have to be made. For my employer's factories, have found that removal of humans from a process is the most cost-effective way to increase reliability. All hail our machine overlords. Brian (or my efficient chat-bot) From: ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen [mailto:g.grem...@cetest.nl] Sent: Monday, November 07, 2016 11:51 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Automated vehicles. In IOT land the rock will warn the cars before it falls….. ;<) Gert Van: alfred1520list [mailto:alfred1520l...@gmail.com] Verzonden: maandag 7 november 2016 20:39 Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] Automated vehicles. On November 7, 2016 9:03:11 AM PST, Ted Eckert <000007cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org<mailto:000007cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>> wrote: With a little imagination, I can come up with many scenarios that appear “no-win”. Imagine you are driving down a mountain road with a rock face on one side and a long drop off a cliff on the other. Vehicle to vehicle communications allow your self-driving vehicle to stay close to the car in front of you. It is a straight road and high speeds are allowed. Now imaging a rock slide starts dropping a large boulder onto the roadway. The vehicle in front of yours may hit the rocks, but it remains intact enough to protect its occupants. Your vehicle can either hit the vehicle in front of you potentially injuring its passengers or take evasive action risking your health. What does the vehicle do? I live in the state of Washington where rock slides are common. http://www.dnr.wa.gov/programs-and-services/geology/geologic-hazards/landslides http://komonews.com/news/local/rock-slide-closes-highway-2-in-central-wash http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9957369/ns/us_news-life/t/rock-slide-closes-major-highway-washington/#.WCCyMIWcGeE Maybe vehicles will need to be programmed to have a much greater following distance in areas where there is a rock slide risk. However, there are many places where a tree can fall on the road, large animals can jump out or a child could run out into the road unexpectedly. These aren’t situations that are new with self-driving cars. They just create a new issue of liability. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: alfred1520list [mailto:alfred1520l...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 7, 2016 8:16 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Automated vehicles. Obviously I can't think of all possibilities, but it seems to me that these sort of situations must be corner cases. After all I have never found myself in a situation where my only options are to hit a person or go down a 300 m cliff at 100 km/h. Further more, I won't be driving at 100 km/h when there is a cliff where I can go down!It's called defensive driving. I am sure defensive driving is programmed into all self driving cars so they are much less likely to be in this sort of situation. The only exceptions that I can imagine are deliberate acts on the part of the person. On November 7, 2016 5:06:36 AM PST, Jim Hulbert <jim.hulb...@pb.com<mailto:jim.hulb...@pb.com>> wrote: So a Mercedes automated vehicle would make the decision of who lives and who dies. That’s incredible. Jim Hulbert From: Pawson, James [mailto:james.paw...@echostar.com] Sent: Monday, November 07, 2016 6:23 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Automated vehicles. This article in The Guardian is related to your first point regarding human drivers “gaming” driverless cars to gain an advantage https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/30/volvo-self-driving-car-autonomous “The first self-driving cars to be operated by ordinary British drivers will be left deliberately unmarked so that other drivers will not be tempted to “take them on”, a senior car industry executive has revealed.” Also “Meanwhile, Mercedes has made it clear that if a situation arises where a car has to choose between saving the lives of its occupants or those of bystanders, it will save the occupants. ‘If you know you can save at least one person, at least save that one. Save the one in the car,’ Christoph von Hugo, manager of driver assistance systems and active safety at Mercedes, told the Paris Motor Show recently.” Bruce Schneier writes a lot on security issues and regularly covers IoT and occasionally driverless vehicles. His blog makes for interesting reading - https://www.schneier.com/ I’m sure it will end up being the usual round of addition of features, poor programming/testing (due to budget constraints), vulnerabilities, exploiting, patching, public outcry, legistlation, etc. All the more reason to buy a bicycle. James From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: 06 November 2016 02:17 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: [PSES] Automated vehicles. Although it's Saturday, I'll use this as my Friday Question. In light of two recent reports in the InComplisnce Magazine. I feel prompted to ask if anyone on this forum can address a couple of questions. http://incompliancemag.com/u-s-dot-releases-federal-policy-on-automated-vehicles/ http://incompliancemag.com/uber-self-driving-truck-delivers-budweiser-beer/ Aside from the obvious concerns about vehicle safety, it occurs to me that there two problem that presently are missing in recent media reporting. In particular for the Level 4 & 5 vehicles as described by the SAE and DOT report. 1) I understand that these vehicles, such as the fully automated Budwiser truck have avoidance systems. Given the human condition of today, I foresee the distinct possibility of drivers in other vehicles "playing around" in such a way as to try and force a response from the avoidance algorithms and cause these vehicles to crash themselves. This kind of sport would be exactly what some types would enjoy. What sort of preventative measures have been taken in this regard? 2) Given the lack of attention to hacking we have already witnessed in the Internet of Things (IoT) crowd, how are the driverless vehicle people doing with regard to the cyber security of these vehicles. That is, is it conceivable that someone may try to hack the truck's operating system and hijack it? Thanks all, doug - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
