Apologies, but as should have been obvious, there was a typo in my last post, and so part of the 2nd para should have read
“…but have never even heard of the TRF documents, or, if they have, cannot get their management to pay for the cost of downloading, and then the time involved “exploring” and understanding them…….” John E Allen. From: john Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: 01 February 2017 21:59 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Do it yourself safety reports? Doug I don’t doubt that when you become very familiar with the IEC TRF approach, and what you need to do to make correct use of them, you can become very comfortable with it, but do think back to when you first encountered it as that will, probably, put you in the same position as many development engineers who are in that position now. Also, don’t forget that there will probably be large numbers of engineers who are told that they have to comply with specified standards, but have never even heard of the TRF documents, or, if they have, can get their management to pay for the cost of downloading, and then the time involved “exploring” and understanding them. If those guys then try to comply with the standards, what do you expect them to do when they try to “make head or tail” of the requirements (and I have met “more than a few”)????? John E Allen W. London, UK From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: 01 February 2017 21:13 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Do it yourself safety reports? John, Interesting that I am in the USA and having cut my compliance teeth on the IECEE TRF format, I actually prefer it to other file formats such as those used by UL and others where there is a strong reliance on vbScript to ensure a report is fully carried out. Of course the idea that a safety lab engineer is any better at this is not necessarily true either. I've had opportunity to review the work of many and often find errors and omissions. I think the prevailing idea for generating these IEC report forms is to diagram each phrase found in the standard and break it out into individual performance-based requirements (e.g. sections 6 to 17 of 61010-1). Ostensibly there is less room for error but often the reverse is true. The effect I have found is one of two things happen. The task is so mind numbing that parts are often missed (argument for scripting), or there is a strong tendency to use boiler-plate language or copy phrases from previous clauses or other reports. I have tracked misspelled words or badly phrased comments which seem to carry over to other safety reports. The IEC 61010-1J blank report form I have (by VDE 2013-11) is 78 pages. After it is filled out, depending on the product type, it can easily double in number of pages. This is one metric I use for estimating the difficulty (and cost) of filling out the report on a particular product. Best, Doug Douglas E Powell Laporte, Colorado USA <mailto:doug...@gmail.com> doug...@gmail.com <http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 1:45 PM, John Woodgate <jmw1...@btinternet.com> wrote: Good, but you need the slogan, so people remember. 'Compliance 101' is neutral and boring. It could be DESIGN IT IN! but maybe someone can produce a better one. With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England Sylvae in aeternum manent. From: John Allen [mailto:jral...@productsafetyinc.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 8:34 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Do it yourself safety reports? This is what the Compliance 101 Track is all about!! Learn more about it and/or how to help at IEEE PSES Symposium - http://2017.psessymposium.org/ IEEE is also reaching out to corporations worldwide. Any support and/or promotion we can get would be great. As Acting President of IEEE's PSES, I'd be happy to talk to any corporation, free of charge about how we can help make Certifications easier and more cost effective. Best Regards, John John Allen | President Product Safety Consulting, Inc. Your Outsourced Compliance Department www.productsafetyinc.com 630-238-0188 <tel:(630)%20238-0188> On Feb 1, 2017, at 2:24 PM, John Woodgate <jmw1...@btinternet.com> wrote: Yes, this is DESIGN IT IN!, and I think everyone here thinks it's the right way to go. But we need to spread the word to CEOs and line managers because, like everything else, it needs setting up, as JA explains below. With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England Sylvae in aeternum manent. From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 8:07 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Do it yourself safety reports? I think (from bitter experience over many years!) that one of the biggest problems that the “do it yourself” safety compliance report company encounters is that most people who do that first then try to use the IEC Test Report Forms (TRF), but find that the format and content of those, and what appears to be missing, are fairly incomprehensible to the average development (as opposed to safety test lab) engineer – especially when he tries to match that format up with what is written in the relevant standard(s), because they basically don’t match very well in many areas. Met this issue at a number of companies, and so had to virtually dissect the relevant standards (an old version of 60950 and the 3rd edition of 61010-1 in my case, plus bits of a few others) to “reduce” them to logical sequences of questions that the non-test lab engineers could follow and “answer”. The nett result was long tabulated lists of questions with simple possible answers of “Not applicable”, Complies” or “Unknown at present” – and in each case some supporting evidence was either needed, or then needed to be found (e.g. test data such as temperature rises and so on) and sometimes demanded use of test equipment which they didn’t have or couldn’t get, or was going to cost a lot of time and money to get.. Development engineers don’t like that because it takes a lot of time and (often boring to them) work to understand & answer the questions and to establish the data, and their managers don’t like it because it generally takes a lot more time and money than they originally budgeted for. Been there, seen/experienced all that! OTOH, when these compliance exercises are successfully (or otherwise!) completed, then both the engineers and their managers know a lot more about the standards and how to make their next products meet them – and how to avoid making the same mistakes in the future! John E Allen W. London, UK From: Dan Roman [ <mailto:danp...@verizon.net> mailto:danp...@verizon.net] Sent: 01 February 2017 11:48 To: <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Do it yourself safety reports? No need to limit yourself to 60950 either. Specifically for battery operated equipment, you can use a standard like 60335 that has requirements for battery operated appliances. From the Annex use the testing and construction and user instructions from that standard. -- Dan Roman IEEE Senior Member PSES/EMCS/CES dan.ro...@ieee.org -------- Original message -------- From: "ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen" <g.grem...@cetest.nl> Date: 2/1/17 4:22 AM (GMT-05:00) To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Do it yourself safety reports? I agree with John, batteries are the most critical part. Make sure they are properly approved, and use a fuse in their leads. As it's an RF product, I suppose the LVD comes into play by means of the RTTE (RED) directive. So a full qualification is needed. Many aspects do not apply, but the remaining applicable chapters need evaluation. That requires evaluation of the battery, and possibly fire and heat hazards if the power exceeds "limited power levels". (antenna voltage > 50 ?) Documentation, marking and labelling and a proper definition (intended use) is needed. Installation and safety documentation might be needed. If the battery is chargeable and a power supply is included it needs verification of its documentation and needs reinforced insulation, both mechanically and electrically, as the secondary "live parts" are rarely earthed in these type of equipment's and often must be be classified as accessible parts. Plastics need may not propagate fire, and should have the right V Class. More aspects can be applicable..... making your own test report is possible, but I doubt if it will stand up against examination, unless you have done this before... Regards, Ing. Gert Gremmen Approvals manager ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ + ce marking of electrical/electronic equipment + Independent Consultancy Services + Compliance Testing and Design for CE marking according to EC-directives: - Electro Magnetic Compatibility 2014/30/EC - Electrical Safety 2014/35/EC - Radio & Telecommunication Terminal Equipment 99/5/EC Web: www.cetest.nl (English) www.ce-test.nl (Dutch) www.cetest.fr (under construction) Phone : +31 10 415 24 26 ------------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail and any attachments thereto may contain information that is confidential and/or protected by intellectual property rights and are intended for the sole use of the recipient(s) named above. Any use of the information contained herein (including, but not limited to, total or partial reproduction, communication or distribution in any form) by persons other than the designated recipient(s) is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender either by telephone or by e-mail and delete the material from any computer. Thank you for your co-operation. From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] Sent: Wednesday 1 February 2017 09:28 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Do it yourself safety reports? If it's battery-powered, the LVD may not apply, so in turn there is no need to apply 60950. But I would advise applying it as far as possible. We don't want more battery fires, so that is one point to look at carefully; can the battery be short-circuited by a fault and if so, what happens? It's certainly possible to do that without a test house, but of course, it has to be done carefully. With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England Sylvae in aeternum manent. From: Curtis McNamara [mailto:mcnam...@umn.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:29 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Do it yourself safety reports? A client is asking if it is practical to do their own 60950 safety reports for CE. The device is battery powered, low power RF (they would have complete EMC testing done at a lab). Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Thanks for all the great past advice! Curt - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> -- Douglas E Powell doug...@gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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