Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

[John Woodgate]

If the standard, or indeed the underlying technology, really needs to be 
improved, someone has to spend a dollar or two. I spend the GBP 
equivalent of about USD2000 a year on standards work I can't charge to 
clients (because it benefits all, not just one client). YMMV.

Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2019-10-15 21:13, doug emcesd.com wrote:
Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing Brands 
of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)
They were in the EOS/ESD Symposium records for years in the late 90s 
or early 2000s. Some may also be in the EMC Symposium records as well. 
Look for authors names including myself, Jon Barth, Ken Hall, Robert 
Renninger, and  Hugh Hyatt. There were many other people involved that 
I don’t have the names handy. Hall, Hyatt, and possibly others are 
deceased now.

This effort went on for years with dozens of engineers. We had 5-20 
GHz scopes back then that were insanely expensive. It is unlikely that 
a committee today could find additional useful information.

I have most of the original data and pictures somewhere in a box. It 
would take a day or two to find it, which I don’t have. Some of it may 
be on an old server I have packed away as well, but that too would 
also take a day to setup again, if it still works.

I can’t spend any time on it unless compensated as it would mess up my 
income stream, which need to cover substantial business expenses.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org
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*From:* Jeff Keyzer <j...@mightyohm.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 15, 2019 10:58:52 AM
*To:* doug emcesd.com <d...@emcesd.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
<EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Subject:* RE: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when 
Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

Doug,

Are these papers online somewhere?  I looked at the ESDA site but I 
could not find an archive of papers.  Maybe I am looking in the wrong 
place.

Cheers,

Jeff

*From:*doug emcesd.com [mailto:d...@emcesd.com]
*Sent:* Monday, October 14, 2019 10:39 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when 
Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

This was pretty much done in the 90s with many round robin tests. The 
culprit is the lack of di/dt control and lack of control on EM 
radiation from the simulator. The two factors dominate everything 
else. No need to duplicate previous work. Just read the papers on the 
results from the significant amount of research that was done, of 
which I was a part.

Doug

Sent from my iPhone

IPhone: 408-858-4528

Office: 702-570-6108

Email: d...@dsmith.org <mailto:d...@dsmith.org>

Website: http://dsmith.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------

*From:*Ken Javor <ken.ja...@emccompliance.com 
<mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com>>
*Sent:* Monday, October 14, 2019 8:17:52 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
<EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when 
Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

No insight into what Doug mentioned, but before tightening up on 
equipment performance requirements, with attendant cost impact to test 
facilities, I would want to know that the variability between test 
facilities due to practice are not the dominating factor.  I would 
want to improve test procedure controls to where everyone does the 
test close enough to the same that if there is still unacceptable 
variability, then, and only then, do we look at the test equipment.

In order to assess that, you would round-robin using the same model of 
gun.

Perhaps that is one of the many things to which Doug referred.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


------------------------------------------------------------------------

*From: *"doug emcesd.com" <d...@emcesd.com <mailto:d...@emcesd.com>>
*Reply-To: *"doug emcesd.com" <d...@emcesd.com <mailto:d...@emcesd.com>>
*Date: *Mon, 14 Oct 2019 19:41:42 +0000
*To: *<EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
*Conversation: *[PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when 
Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)
*Subject: *Re: [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when 
Changing Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

Hi Montara,

There are more stories than I can type here. The standard as written 
is not very good. We addressed this in the early to mid-1990s and 
determined what was necessary. We also did a lot of round robin 
testing. Probably most of what you want has been published in the 
1990s. Look at the ESD Association papers from the era. Look for 
authors like myself (we were all involved with revising 61000-4-2), 
Jon Barth, Ken Hall, Hugh Hyatt.

Everything you need was done back then and rejected by the EU members 
for various reasons that I do not consider valid.

Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org <mailto:d...@dsmith.org>
Website: http://dsmith.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------

*From:*Monrad Monsen <monrad.mon...@oracle.com 
<mailto:monrad.mon...@oracle.com>>
*Sent:* Monday, October 14, 2019 9:43:54 AM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
<EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
*Subject:* [PSES] Any Different Results in ESD Testing when Changing 
Brands of ESD Simulator (IEC 61000-4-2)

Hi!
Does anyone have any stories that can be shared of a product getting a 
different ESD test result when changing the brand/model of ESD simulator?

I am a member of the US Technical Advisory Group (TAG) for CISPR/I 
international standards committee (Electromagnetic compatibility of 
information technology equipment, multimedia equipment and receivers). 
There is a proposal that SC77B begin work on changes to IEC 61000-4-2 
(ESD) to improve the ESD waveform verification (some call this 
“calibration”) because under today’s rules different simulators create 
different levels of high frequency signal content which some believe 
is the primary reason for different test results.  Some believe that 
the IEC 61000-4-2 waveform requirement fails to include any evaluation 
of the slope (dV/dt or dI/dt) of the impulse, and that uncontrolled 
parameter directly affects spectral content.  I would like to know if 
anyone has experienced any actual ESD test result consistency when 
using different Brand/model ESD simulators even though they are all 
calibrated simulators under today’s rules.

I admit that our company uses the same brand & model ESD simulator as 
local labs, so I have never observed this issue myself.  My initial 
preference is to not add cost to testing and avoid forcing labs to buy 
new ESD simulators, but perhaps this cost is warranted if there are 
actual wide variations in ESD test results depending on the brand of 
ESD simulator.

Thanks.

Monrad Monsen | Hardware Compliance Strategist
Phone: +1.303.272.9612
Oracle Market Access & Hardware Compliance Strategy
500 Eldorado Blvd | Broomfield, CO 80021



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