I also concur with what has been posted by others. But I would like to inject one short commentary if I might.
Traditionally, we have found that a large percentage of emissions failures are due to the over-the-counter peripherals and/or cables; a required part of the overall test system but somewhat outside the control of the customer. I know this is not new information, but the customer is not happy when they are paying good money troubleshooting a failure caused by the peripherals or cables they chose. And then they will ask the questions I so dread, "How can they sell peripherals that do not meet the requirements?". I wish I had an answer. So for our EMC lab, if we do not count the failures caused by over-the-counter peripherals, the percentage of failures goes way down. Piece out. Stay safe. The Other Brian On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 7:59 AM Jim Hulbert <jim.hulb...@bluecrestinc.com> wrote: > I first started in the EMC, Product Safety, and standards compliance > aspect of engineering about 35 years ago. At that time they were saying > all the same things we are saying today: Must be considered up front in > designs. Must be included in engineering education at the > college/university level. Management needs to commit to compliance. I > would also add that EMC was “black magic” (do people still say that?). > Apparently we still have a long way to go. I wonder if they will still be > saying these things 35 years from now. > > > > Jim Hulbert > > > > *From:* John E Allen <000009cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 25, 2021 5:59 PM > *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first > time? > > > > Like a “lot” of people here, I never had any formal education in either > safety or EMC compliance – I just had to learn “on the job” about “what > worked and what didn’t”, and often in very challenging situations*. * > > *(OTOH, I was never the “sharpest tool in the toolbox” in engineering > parlance – which was a “problem” when engaging with local management > which, frankly, mainly “didn’t to know” **☹**, ) * > > > > Therefore safety, standards compliance and EMC standards compliance REALLY > MUST be an integral component of engineering education –* and ALSO for > company management *- forward from where we are “now”. > > > > John E Allen > > W. London, UK. > > > > > > *From:* Dennis Ward <00000dbeaa892a40-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> > *Sent:* 25 May 2021 21:09 > *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time? > > > > Having been in the EMC business now for going on 40+years, I concur with > what Pete is saying. The truth of the matter is, this field of study is > sadly under taught and is still more hands on and learning by trial and > error for the most part. Yes, there are a lot of good ‘classes’ you can > take, but the fact remains, this is more than not an OJT field. > > > > As to manufacturers designing at the limit. This is also true, and also > problematic as it means far too many products still fail first time out. > > > > I don’t know if I would necessarily agree with the percentages reported, > but it is getting a better. > > > > My last 20+ years has been working in the regulatory approvals end and I > can say that failure to comply with rules and standards is still a big > issue with manufacturers. > > > > Thanks > > > > > > *Dennis Ward *Senior Reviewing Engineer > PCTEST Engineering Laboratory, LLC. > 7185 Oakland Mills Road > Columbia, MD 21045 > 1 410 290 6652) > > dennis.w...@pctest.com | www.pctest.com > <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pctest.com%2F__%3B!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!G5PoiHtwygC2c1-K2AWMZRvCCE6QLOzINzbfeu8z5DkDEBTyzIO5ZyK96tdSCfF-YjrMgA%24&data=04%7C01%7CJim.Hulbert%40bluecrestinc.com%7C1f6f0b889b904fc9613808d91fc851d5%7C8310f036fe8d4702a1e0177e9320227c%7C0%7C0%7C637575767516329535%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=2o9iKUKBvzwvUEMRFXxAErAGSZFL46Sec%2F81smmJE%2BI%3D&reserved=0> > | www.element.com > <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F%2Fwww.element.com%2F__%3B!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!G5PoiHtwygC2c1-K2AWMZRvCCE6QLOzINzbfeu8z5DkDEBTyzIO5ZyK96tdSCfFSJ1C9Rw%24&data=04%7C01%7CJim.Hulbert%40bluecrestinc.com%7C1f6f0b889b904fc9613808d91fc851d5%7C8310f036fe8d4702a1e0177e9320227c%7C0%7C0%7C637575767516339494%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Oys8Fo5Q2WulQ8Xg04hOQtANpV4MRF%2BwyBMJYMG7f2Y%3D&reserved=0> > > This communication and any attachment contain information from PCTEST > Engineering Laboratory, LLC. and is intended for the exclusive use of the > recipient(s) named above. > > > > *From:* Pete Perkins <00000061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 25, 2021 12:39 PM > *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time? > > > > *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of Element Materials > Technology. *DO NOT* click links or open attachments unless you recognize > the sender and know the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if > you are in any doubt about this email. > > James, > > You don’t have to denigrate yourself as not being a guru. You have plenty > of experience in this as shown by your comments. Sharing this is quite > valuable to the others on this thread. > > All of us started out as ignorant of any of these > requirements because they are not taught in formal college level courses; a > few exceptions seem to exist. > > Some folks might get specialized training – if they work > for a gov’t agency or a safety test organization; else it’s all OJT. > > I don’t see that changing any time soon; the academic folks > have their interests which continue to push mathematical analysis > techniques (and that will continue). More and more technical folks will > get higher degrees [you know what BS is, MS is More of the Same and PhD is > Piled higher and Deeper :>) ], hardly any of which is of interest at our > daily working level. Manufacturers will continue to steal trained folks > from test labs; probably not too bad a deal especially if the folks move > back and forth to spread what they’ve learned going each way. > > Finally, the standards keep getting more complex (PhD > effect) and interrelated as issues are delved into more deeply; plus > manufacturers are getting better trained to design near the limit without > as much margin so the compliance is close to falling off of the edge of the > world at any moment. > > > > So keep at what you are doing as long as you enjoy it; then > get out gracefully – keeping your reputation intact to maintain a legacy as > you go. > > > > Enough of Phil 101 today. > > > > :>) br, Pete > > > > Peter E Perkins, PE > > Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant > > PO Box 1067 > > Albany, ORe 97321-0413 > > > > 503/452-1201 > > > > IEEE Life Fellow > > IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer > > www.researchgate.net > <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp*3A*2F*2Fwww.researchgate.net*2FPeter*2520Perkins%26data%3D04*7C01*7Cdennis.ward*40pctest.com*7Cf10796d676544029a29a08d91fb4b724*7C048204512a274c35a1d499fa8eb67e80*7C0*7C0*7C637575683315196024*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000%26sdata%3DvMP7NQX0RVdQw7XX7mD2zN56lfu9cAx6HgLOGauUJ2A*3D%26reserved%3D0__%3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!G5PoiHtwygC2c1-K2AWMZRvCCE6QLOzINzbfeu8z5DkDEBTyzIO5ZyK96tdSCfFRgKCHtQ%24&data=04%7C01%7CJim.Hulbert%40bluecrestinc.com%7C1f6f0b889b904fc9613808d91fc851d5%7C8310f036fe8d4702a1e0177e9320227c%7C0%7C0%7C637575767516339494%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=qbH0kgc8fWUsbsLrKp4TJ6dmIjiQx2impVlIqwlm3lA%3D&reserved=0> > search my name > > p.perk...@ieee.org > > > > > > Entropy ain’t what it used to be > > > > *From:* James Pawson (U3C) <ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk> > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 25, 2021 1:19 AM > *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time? > > > > *(replying even though I’m not a guru)* > > > > Hi Charles, hope all is well with you > > > > Speaking from my own experience. Over the last four years of running a > consultancy, pre-compliance and low cost test EMC laboratory I would (very > roughly) estimate that around: > > > > - 50% of products pass their desired radiated emissions limits without > any modification > > > - 33% or less pass all of the applicable tests first time without > modification > > > > The *major caveats and notes* here are that > > > > - These figures are for customers products where the EMC performance > is not known before testing. We do a lot of work helping people solve > existing EMC problems but we are not counting this in these figures. > - Most of my customers are smaller businesses that can’t afford to > employ an engineer to just look after compliance. That job role is either > split amongst several people or the engineer in question has to look after > quality, manufacturing, sustaining, thermal, system, and everything else. > Speaking as someone who has designed many products and systems in the past, > trying to design for functionality whilst simultaneously considering best > EMC performance is HARD. I use the metaphor of > - The products that pass first time generally fall into one of three > categories > > > - Products that we have design reviewed before the design was finalised > - Retests of products that have already been through our lab once > - Products that are very simple in nature > > > - Our hit-rate at being able to solve our customers problems is around > 90-95% > - The “ones that got away” where we were unable to help deliver a > compliant include > > > - No action taken: Products where it was deemed by the manufacturer > not economically feasible to modify the product (e.g. product going end > of > life) > - No further communications from the manufacturer so we don’t get > to find out what happened next (no news is good news, right?) > > > > I would echo the sentiments of others on this thread regarding the need to > design in compliance from the start. > > > > One of the problems with the field of compliance is that it is too often > “learned through experience in industry” and not explicitly taught. When it > is taught at academic level it is often a surface treatment with a > theoretical look at shielding or maybe crosstalk with no other practical > context or background. > > > > The split between industry and academia is one of the possible causes. > Yes, there are exceptions to this but they primarily remain exceptions. I > had discussions with a local university about some guest lectures on > compliance and the theme of the response was “it doesn’t really fit into > any of our modules” and “we can’t have it as an optional lecture as none of > the students will attend”. > > > > The number of times I hear “oh, thanks for that. No one has every > explained it that clearly before” is worrying! > > > > All the best > > James > > > > > > > > > > James Pawson > > The EMC Problem Solver > > > > *Unit 3 Compliance Ltd* > > *EMC : Environmental : Safety : CE + UKCA : Consultancy* > > > > www.unit3compliance.co.uk > <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fnam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp*3A*2F*2Fwww.unit3compliance.co.uk*2F%26data%3D04*7C01*7Cdennis.ward*40pctest.com*7Cf10796d676544029a29a08d91fb4b724*7C048204512a274c35a1d499fa8eb67e80*7C0*7C0*7C637575683315196024*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000%26sdata%3DF9GDgetAYgs*2FmX4*2BSGBsOgIz*2BJL*2B7mNxhlCZNXjCdeE*3D%26reserved%3D0__%3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!GXa4NB5MBjHR!G5PoiHtwygC2c1-K2AWMZRvCCE6QLOzINzbfeu8z5DkDEBTyzIO5ZyK96tdSCfHu54Z8NQ%24&data=04%7C01%7CJim.Hulbert%40bluecrestinc.com%7C1f6f0b889b904fc9613808d91fc851d5%7C8310f036fe8d4702a1e0177e9320227c%7C0%7C0%7C637575767516349437%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=FjETeX%2BfbA6TJ5fvByG2dUXZF%2BRAsS%2FZ47e0grQYPjA%3D&reserved=0> > | +44(0)1274 911747 | +44(0)7811 139957 > > 2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL > > Registered in England and Wales # 10574298 > > > > *From:* Grasso, Charles [Outlook] <charles.gra...@dish.com> > *Sent:* 24 May 2021 15:47 > *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time? > > > > Hello EMC gurus! > > > > Calling all labs - In your experience how many products pass the > Unintentional Emissions > test first time? > > > > > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > 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It is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). > If you have received it in error, please immediately advise the sender by > reply email and then delete this message. No one other than the intended > recipient may disclose, copy, distribute or use the information contained > in this message. > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
