And herein lies our circular problem: 1) Get started writing an app using the EFL 2) We are completely rewriting the interfaces that app developers will use 3) Developers investigate what can be done to help and get stuck 4) ... wait a while then return to 1 ...
I am putting together trivial examples of apps using efl_ namespace and it is very difficult to actually build anything complete. If that list is truly the "MVP of EFL Interfaces" then we're realistically asking folk to not bother writing apps on EFL for another 9 months. Given how much work has gone into this I don't believe that is where we are. A quick browse of that list shows, for example, at least 3 MVVM tickets that I thought we agreed were not part of the first interfaces release - so it can't be the slimmest possible list. Also many of the tasks have patches that are almost complete but not rounded off - to me this indicates that we are not sure what to focus on to maximise our efforts and so those who contribute lose interest and never finish off the good work that would otherwise be giving us a significant help... Andrew On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 at 05:20 Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com> wrote: > On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 04:38:33 +0200 Jonathan Aquilina < > jaquil...@eagleeyet.net> > said: > > realistically the best way to start is outside of efl. write an application > that uses efl then go from there. pick a small simple app or tool for > yourself. > then either expand that or write another one. get more ambitious as time > goes > on. eventually go "i need a feature in efl for this" and begin to find out > where to put it (ask questions) etc. ... i think that's the best path. > > > Here is a very valid question where would a total noob like me start > > contributing? > > > > Given the size of the code base it’s a bit scary I would say for new > comers. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On 18 Oct 2017, at 04:26, Jean-Philippe André <j...@videolan.org> > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > 2017-10-18 9:35 GMT+09:00 Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com>: > > > > > >> On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:18:43 +0000 Andrew Williams < > a...@andywilliams.me> > > >> said: > > >> > > >>> Hi, > > >>> > > >>> There is a concerted effort now to try and fix up the documentation > of > > >> EFL > > >>> for devs / contributors and for users of our apps. > > >>> The dev portion of this is obviously largely based around the > interfaces > > >>> work as everything will be "legacy" at some point in the near future. > > >>> We only have a limited time available to get all this done and I > think we > > >>> should be able to publish the docs at completion if not before. > > >>> Therefore it is becoming more important to figure out where we are > going > > >> to > > >>> get to, by when (or at least a target that we can all agree on). > > >>> > > >>> Given that the parent ticket https://phab.enlightenment.org/T5301 > was > > >>> created in March and we're in October now with around 1/3 - 1/2 of > the > > >> work > > >>> done (guesstimating here as there is no obvious way to see how much > > >>> progress we are making (only about 1/5 of tickets are closed off)) > and > > >> even > > >>> in the last month we are adding new sub-tasks twice as fast as we are > > >>> closing tickets it seems like an impractical target to get any sort > of > > >>> stable interfaces API subset ready for the end of the year. > > >> > > > > > > Blue/Green tickets are not a high priority, so I'll consider only the > red > > > tickets here. > > > > > > What's missing here is a progress on each ticket. Example: > > > > > > - T5363 Cleanup elm_widget.eo > > > This is not closed yet. But I think I made a lot of progress on it. I > just > > > updated the ticket to show where I think we're standing on this. > > > I'd say this task is more than ~80% complete. > > > > > > The same applies to quite a few other tickets as well: > > > - T5361 Cleanup elm_slider.eo > > > - T5359 Refactor elm_panes > > > - T5315 Refactoring Edje/Elm_Layout > > > - T5329 Cleanup elm_general.eot > > > etc... > > > > > > Unfortunately it would be correct to say that a lot of the remaining > > > tickets haven't seen any significant progress in master yet. For (WAY > TOO) > > > many I am still waiting for something to review. > > > > > > We are making progress, but it is much slower than I was hoping for. > > > > > > > > > > > >>> I really think we need to get a handle on this - agree what *must* be > > >> done > > >>> to even have a "ready to start being used" API so we can focus and > > >> finally > > >>> get something out of the door to build on. > > >>> My proposal is this: A new parent ticket is created for "Nice to have > > >>> Interfaces" and another for "Not first release Interfaces" and we > move > > >>> everything off that main ticket that is non-essential. Only then > will we > > >>> get a feeling for what remains. > > >>> > > >>> Personally I find moving targets difficult to work to and very morale > > >>> draining - I'd be very surprised if there are not others out there > > >> feeling > > >>> the same way. > > >>> Thanks, and as always please fire your thoughts back team :). > > >>> Andrew > > >> > > >> i think that's is what T5301 is. it's a must have. we're already > ignoring > > >> many > > >> things like eldbus, efreet, etc. etc. ... > > >> > > >> the fact that new things are turning up as we explore the problems > and so > > >> on is > > >> totally expected. you can't predict everything in advance. you notice > at e > > >> dev > > >> day i already wanted to cut things like cedric's "eo file content for > style > > >> specs" etc. as i believe this can be done later without affecting the > api > > >> in an > > >> incompatible way. > > >> > > >>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 at 12:44 Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com> > > >> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 09:50:18 +0000 Andrew Williams < > > >> a...@andywilliams.me> > > >>>> said: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Hi, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> This is good to hear. Reflecting on it I think what I missed was > the > > >>>>> clarity that 1.21 would not be released until these interfaces are > > >>>> stable. > > >>>> > > >>>> Actually that's not set in stone. We may release a 1.21 and defer > > >>>> interfaces > > >>>> for 1.22. It depends on timing and where things get to by what time. > > >> The > > >>>> way we > > >>>> are doing things, interfaces is an OPTIONAL blocker for a release. > It's > > >>>> not a > > >>>> technical one. The GOAL is to have 1.21 by end of year or so with > > >>>> interfaces > > >>>> "ready to begin to be used as a stable API". > > >>>> > > >>>>> Having been looking for this since 1.19 I'm thrilled but wonder if > > >>>> everyone > > >>>>> is on the same page (maybe it was only clear within Samsung crew?). > > >>>> Should > > >>>>> we be documenting somewhere like an upcoming releases page that, > > >> whilst > > >>>>> normally a timed cycle, for this release we have a specific goal in > > >> mind > > >>>>> rather than a date? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Thanks, > > >>>>> Andy > > >>>>> On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 at 13:24, Carsten Haitzler < > ras...@rasterman.com > > >>> > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 12:08:46 +0000 Andrew Williams < > > >>>> a...@andywilliams.me> > > >>>>>> said: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Hi, > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> In a word no. What that is is an ever growing list of work we > > >> would > > >>>> like > > >>>>>> to > > >>>>>>> get done. That's not really a planning tool it's a log. > > >>>>>>> Planning for what goes into a release is a different beast - we > > >> make > > >>>> a > > >>>>>> list > > >>>>>>> of what's required, agree on it and start working through. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> that actually is the list of things to go into 1.21 (efl > interfaces > > >>>> "done" > > >>>>>> release)... :) > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Surely in planning for a release you need either a) a delivery > > >> date > > >>>> and a > > >>>>>>> prioritised list or b) a requirements list and an agreed scope. > > >>>>>>> A list of things that gets added to as we work through is not > > >> either > > >>>> of > > >>>>>>> those - the list could grow forever and never get finished... > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> things are discovered as the work is done. the goal is clear make > > >>>> eo/efl > > >>>>>> interfaces stable and ready to use for application devs". > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Andy > > >>>>>>> On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 at 11:41, Carsten Haitzler < > > >> ras...@rasterman.com > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 20:12:34 +0000 Andrew Williams < > > >>>>>> a...@andywilliams.me> > > >>>>>>>> said: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> just saying... isn't > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> https://phab.enlightenment.org/T5301 > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> good enough? i mean it does what's needed. tacks a todo list > > >> and > > >>>> even > > >>>>>>>> dependencies... etc. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Hi team, > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> As many would probably agree by now we have a very high > > >> ticket > > >>>> volume > > >>>>>>>> which > > >>>>>>>>> is rather hard to manage... Whilst folk are doing a great > > >> job of > > >>>>>>>>> marshalling the incoming tasks I think that some more > > >> structure > > >>>> would > > >>>>>>>> help > > >>>>>>>>> us to see what is needed in each area and for the next > > >> release > > >>>> etc... > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> In preparation for 1.21 I would like to start working on > > >> this a > > >>>>>> little to > > >>>>>>>>> help us manage the work for our next release (especially as > > >> it > > >>>> will > > >>>>>> be > > >>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>> eo interfaces release!) and propose to do the following in > > >> phab, > > >>>> as > > >>>>>> it is > > >>>>>>>>> otherwise managing to keep track well: > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> * Add a milestone to efl phab project for the next release - > > >> this > > >>>>>> will be > > >>>>>>>>> used to mark the issues we have agreed must go into the next > > >>>> release > > >>>>>>>>> * Add sub projects for each area of EFL so we can better > > >>>> categorise > > >>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>> tasks (we can either use EFL or a "common" subproject for > > >> those > > >>>> that > > >>>>>>>> apply > > >>>>>>>>> to all > > >>>>>>>>> * efl-eina > > >>>>>>>>> * efl-eolian > > >>>>>>>>> * efl-canvas > > >>>>>>>>> * efl-canvas-layout > > >>>>>>>>> * efl-ui > > >>>>>>>>> (etc etc) > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Notice the use of the new namespaces for everything in the > > >>>>>> interfaces - > > >>>>>>>>> this is surely how we should be thinking going forward :) > > >>>>>>>>> If we are able to split things out a bit more then we can > > >> have > > >>>> more > > >>>>>>>> people > > >>>>>>>>> assigned to projects with fewer issues per project. > > >>>>>>>>> Then the milestone for release can be the main point of > > >> concern > > >>>> for a > > >>>>>>>>> release manager :) > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> I wanted to throw the concept out to the list before doing > > >>>> anything > > >>>>>> in > > >>>>>>>> case > > >>>>>>>>> there are any concerns with this approach that I may have > > >> missed? > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Thanks :) > > >>>>>>>>> Andy > > >>>>>>>>> -- > > >>>>>>>>> http://andywilliams.me > > >>>>>>>>> http://ajwillia.ms > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> ------------------ > > >>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's > > >> most > > >>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>>>> enlightenment-devel mailing list > > >>>>>>>>> enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > >>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment- > > >> devel > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> -- > > >>>>>>>> ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > > >>>>>> -------------- > > >>>>>>>> The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> -- > > >>>>>>> http://andywilliams.me > > >>>>>>> http://ajwillia.ms > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> -- > > >>>>>> ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > > >>>> -------------- > > >>>>>> The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> -- > > >>>>> http://andywilliams.me > > >>>>> http://ajwillia.ms > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> -- > > >>>> ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > > >> -------------- > > >>>> Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com > > >>>> > > >>>> -- > > >>> http://andywilliams.me > > >>> http://ajwillia.ms > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > -------------- > > >> Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> ------------------ > > >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > > >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> enlightenment-devel mailing list > > >> enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Jean-Philippe André > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > > _______________________________________________ > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > _______________________________________________ > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > -- > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- > Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > -- http://andywilliams.me http://ajwillia.ms ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
