On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 09:27:00 +0000 Andrew Williams <a...@andywilliams.me> said:
> And herein lies our circular problem: > > 1) Get started writing an app using the EFL > 2) We are completely rewriting the interfaces that app developers will use > 3) Developers investigate what can be done to help and get stuck > 4) ... wait a while then return to 1 ... > > I am putting together trivial examples of apps using efl_ namespace and it > is very difficult to actually build anything complete. > If that list is truly the "MVP of EFL Interfaces" then we're realistically > asking folk to not bother writing apps on EFL for another 9 months. > Given how much work has gone into this I don't believe that is where we are. > > A quick browse of that list shows, for example, at least 3 MVVM tickets > that I thought we agreed were not part of the first interfaces release - so > it can't be the slimmest possible list. > Also many of the tasks have patches that are almost complete but not > rounded off - to me this indicates that we are not sure what to focus on to > maximise our efforts and so those who contribute lose interest and never > finish off the good work that would otherwise be giving us a significant > help... i don't think anyone can use eo api yet ... i wasn't suggesting it. use the legacy api. start there. yet eo api will be a change, but it'll be vaguely similar in concept. > Andrew > > On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 at 05:20 Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com> wrote: > > > On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 04:38:33 +0200 Jonathan Aquilina < > > jaquil...@eagleeyet.net> > > said: > > > > realistically the best way to start is outside of efl. write an application > > that uses efl then go from there. pick a small simple app or tool for > > yourself. > > then either expand that or write another one. get more ambitious as time > > goes > > on. eventually go "i need a feature in efl for this" and begin to find out > > where to put it (ask questions) etc. ... i think that's the best path. > > > > > Here is a very valid question where would a total noob like me start > > > contributing? > > > > > > Given the size of the code base it’s a bit scary I would say for new > > comers. > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > On 18 Oct 2017, at 04:26, Jean-Philippe André <j...@videolan.org> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > 2017-10-18 9:35 GMT+09:00 Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com>: > > > > > > > >> On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:18:43 +0000 Andrew Williams < > > a...@andywilliams.me> > > > >> said: > > > >> > > > >>> Hi, > > > >>> > > > >>> There is a concerted effort now to try and fix up the documentation > > of > > > >> EFL > > > >>> for devs / contributors and for users of our apps. > > > >>> The dev portion of this is obviously largely based around the > > interfaces > > > >>> work as everything will be "legacy" at some point in the near future. > > > >>> We only have a limited time available to get all this done and I > > think we > > > >>> should be able to publish the docs at completion if not before. > > > >>> Therefore it is becoming more important to figure out where we are > > going > > > >> to > > > >>> get to, by when (or at least a target that we can all agree on). > > > >>> > > > >>> Given that the parent ticket https://phab.enlightenment.org/T5301 > > was > > > >>> created in March and we're in October now with around 1/3 - 1/2 of > > the > > > >> work > > > >>> done (guesstimating here as there is no obvious way to see how much > > > >>> progress we are making (only about 1/5 of tickets are closed off)) > > and > > > >> even > > > >>> in the last month we are adding new sub-tasks twice as fast as we are > > > >>> closing tickets it seems like an impractical target to get any sort > > of > > > >>> stable interfaces API subset ready for the end of the year. > > > >> > > > > > > > > Blue/Green tickets are not a high priority, so I'll consider only the > > red > > > > tickets here. > > > > > > > > What's missing here is a progress on each ticket. Example: > > > > > > > > - T5363 Cleanup elm_widget.eo > > > > This is not closed yet. But I think I made a lot of progress on it. I > > just > > > > updated the ticket to show where I think we're standing on this. > > > > I'd say this task is more than ~80% complete. > > > > > > > > The same applies to quite a few other tickets as well: > > > > - T5361 Cleanup elm_slider.eo > > > > - T5359 Refactor elm_panes > > > > - T5315 Refactoring Edje/Elm_Layout > > > > - T5329 Cleanup elm_general.eot > > > > etc... > > > > > > > > Unfortunately it would be correct to say that a lot of the remaining > > > > tickets haven't seen any significant progress in master yet. For (WAY > > TOO) > > > > many I am still waiting for something to review. > > > > > > > > We are making progress, but it is much slower than I was hoping for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> I really think we need to get a handle on this - agree what *must* be > > > >> done > > > >>> to even have a "ready to start being used" API so we can focus and > > > >> finally > > > >>> get something out of the door to build on. > > > >>> My proposal is this: A new parent ticket is created for "Nice to have > > > >>> Interfaces" and another for "Not first release Interfaces" and we > > move > > > >>> everything off that main ticket that is non-essential. Only then > > will we > > > >>> get a feeling for what remains. > > > >>> > > > >>> Personally I find moving targets difficult to work to and very morale > > > >>> draining - I'd be very surprised if there are not others out there > > > >> feeling > > > >>> the same way. > > > >>> Thanks, and as always please fire your thoughts back team :). > > > >>> Andrew > > > >> > > > >> i think that's is what T5301 is. it's a must have. we're already > > ignoring > > > >> many > > > >> things like eldbus, efreet, etc. etc. ... > > > >> > > > >> the fact that new things are turning up as we explore the problems > > and so > > > >> on is > > > >> totally expected. you can't predict everything in advance. you notice > > at e > > > >> dev > > > >> day i already wanted to cut things like cedric's "eo file content for > > style > > > >> specs" etc. as i believe this can be done later without affecting the > > api > > > >> in an > > > >> incompatible way. > > > >> > > > >>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 at 12:44 Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com> > > > >> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 09:50:18 +0000 Andrew Williams < > > > >> a...@andywilliams.me> > > > >>>> said: > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> Hi, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> This is good to hear. Reflecting on it I think what I missed was > > the > > > >>>>> clarity that 1.21 would not be released until these interfaces are > > > >>>> stable. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Actually that's not set in stone. We may release a 1.21 and defer > > > >>>> interfaces > > > >>>> for 1.22. It depends on timing and where things get to by what time. > > > >> The > > > >>>> way we > > > >>>> are doing things, interfaces is an OPTIONAL blocker for a release. > > It's > > > >>>> not a > > > >>>> technical one. The GOAL is to have 1.21 by end of year or so with > > > >>>> interfaces > > > >>>> "ready to begin to be used as a stable API". > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> Having been looking for this since 1.19 I'm thrilled but wonder if > > > >>>> everyone > > > >>>>> is on the same page (maybe it was only clear within Samsung crew?). > > > >>>> Should > > > >>>>> we be documenting somewhere like an upcoming releases page that, > > > >> whilst > > > >>>>> normally a timed cycle, for this release we have a specific goal in > > > >> mind > > > >>>>> rather than a date? > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Thanks, > > > >>>>> Andy > > > >>>>> On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 at 13:24, Carsten Haitzler < > > ras...@rasterman.com > > > >>> > > > >>>> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 12:08:46 +0000 Andrew Williams < > > > >>>> a...@andywilliams.me> > > > >>>>>> said: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> Hi, > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> In a word no. What that is is an ever growing list of work we > > > >> would > > > >>>> like > > > >>>>>> to > > > >>>>>>> get done. That's not really a planning tool it's a log. > > > >>>>>>> Planning for what goes into a release is a different beast - we > > > >> make > > > >>>> a > > > >>>>>> list > > > >>>>>>> of what's required, agree on it and start working through. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> that actually is the list of things to go into 1.21 (efl > > interfaces > > > >>>> "done" > > > >>>>>> release)... :) > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> Surely in planning for a release you need either a) a delivery > > > >> date > > > >>>> and a > > > >>>>>>> prioritised list or b) a requirements list and an agreed scope. > > > >>>>>>> A list of things that gets added to as we work through is not > > > >> either > > > >>>> of > > > >>>>>>> those - the list could grow forever and never get finished... > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> things are discovered as the work is done. the goal is clear make > > > >>>> eo/efl > > > >>>>>> interfaces stable and ready to use for application devs". > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> Andy > > > >>>>>>> On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 at 11:41, Carsten Haitzler < > > > >> ras...@rasterman.com > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 20:12:34 +0000 Andrew Williams < > > > >>>>>> a...@andywilliams.me> > > > >>>>>>>> said: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> just saying... isn't > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> https://phab.enlightenment.org/T5301 > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> good enough? i mean it does what's needed. tacks a todo list > > > >> and > > > >>>> even > > > >>>>>>>> dependencies... etc. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> Hi team, > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> As many would probably agree by now we have a very high > > > >> ticket > > > >>>> volume > > > >>>>>>>> which > > > >>>>>>>>> is rather hard to manage... Whilst folk are doing a great > > > >> job of > > > >>>>>>>>> marshalling the incoming tasks I think that some more > > > >> structure > > > >>>> would > > > >>>>>>>> help > > > >>>>>>>>> us to see what is needed in each area and for the next > > > >> release > > > >>>> etc... > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> In preparation for 1.21 I would like to start working on > > > >> this a > > > >>>>>> little to > > > >>>>>>>>> help us manage the work for our next release (especially as > > > >> it > > > >>>> will > > > >>>>>> be > > > >>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>> eo interfaces release!) and propose to do the following in > > > >> phab, > > > >>>> as > > > >>>>>> it is > > > >>>>>>>>> otherwise managing to keep track well: > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> * Add a milestone to efl phab project for the next release - > > > >> this > > > >>>>>> will be > > > >>>>>>>>> used to mark the issues we have agreed must go into the next > > > >>>> release > > > >>>>>>>>> * Add sub projects for each area of EFL so we can better > > > >>>> categorise > > > >>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>> tasks (we can either use EFL or a "common" subproject for > > > >> those > > > >>>> that > > > >>>>>>>> apply > > > >>>>>>>>> to all > > > >>>>>>>>> * efl-eina > > > >>>>>>>>> * efl-eolian > > > >>>>>>>>> * efl-canvas > > > >>>>>>>>> * efl-canvas-layout > > > >>>>>>>>> * efl-ui > > > >>>>>>>>> (etc etc) > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> Notice the use of the new namespaces for everything in the > > > >>>>>> interfaces - > > > >>>>>>>>> this is surely how we should be thinking going forward :) > > > >>>>>>>>> If we are able to split things out a bit more then we can > > > >> have > > > >>>> more > > > >>>>>>>> people > > > >>>>>>>>> assigned to projects with fewer issues per project. > > > >>>>>>>>> Then the milestone for release can be the main point of > > > >> concern > > > >>>> for a > > > >>>>>>>>> release manager :) > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> I wanted to throw the concept out to the list before doing > > > >>>> anything > > > >>>>>> in > > > >>>>>>>> case > > > >>>>>>>>> there are any concerns with this approach that I may have > > > >> missed? > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> Thanks :) > > > >>>>>>>>> Andy > > > >>>>>>>>> -- > > > >>>>>>>>> http://andywilliams.me > > > >>>>>>>>> http://ajwillia.ms > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >> ------------------ > > > >>>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's > > > >> most > > > >>>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>>>>>>>> enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > >>>>>>>>> enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > >>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment- > > > >> devel > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> -- > > > >>>>>>>> ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > > > >>>>>> -------------- > > > >>>>>>>> The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> -- > > > >>>>>>> http://andywilliams.me > > > >>>>>>> http://ajwillia.ms > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> -- > > > >>>>>> ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > > > >>>> -------------- > > > >>>>>> The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> -- > > > >>>>> http://andywilliams.me > > > >>>>> http://ajwillia.ms > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> -- > > > >>>> ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > > > >> -------------- > > > >>>> Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com > > > >>>> > > > >>>> -- > > > >>> http://andywilliams.me > > > >>> http://ajwillia.ms > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > > -------------- > > > >> Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >> ------------------ > > > >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > > > >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > >> enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Jean-Philippe André > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > > > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > > _______________________________________________ > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > -- > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- > > Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > _______________________________________________ > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > -- > http://andywilliams.me > http://ajwillia.ms > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
