On Sat, 1 Dec 2012 18:19:52 -0200 Bruno Dilly <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 3:41 AM, David Seikel <[email protected]> > wrote: > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 13:15:42 -0200 Bruno Dilly > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:30 AM, David Seikel <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 10:46:00 -0200 Bruno Dilly > >> > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> >> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:59 PM, David Seikel > >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 14:55:26 -0200 Bruno Dilly > >> >> > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> Hi David, > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 1:36 PM, David Seikel > >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> > On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:47:16 -0200 Bruno Dilly > >> >> >> > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> we're are now making ephysics API more stable, almost all > >> >> >> >> the features intended to go in are already implemented, > >> >> >> >> so we are moving to the next step: > >> >> >> >> adding support to physics on Edje. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > I'm gonna take a step back and consider the big picture > >> >> >> > from my own point of view before delving into the details. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > First the simple question - have you considered Edje Lua as > >> >> >> > well as Embryo? I'll be happy to write the Edje Lua > >> >> >> > bindings. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I'm planning to work with Embryo because it's used by most of > >> >> >> the scripts in our repository, and I always pick Embryo > >> >> >> for private projects done here on Profusion, so I know it > >> >> >> much better than Lua. But would be great to support physics > >> >> >> on both. > >> >> > > >> >> > I'll add similar Edje Lua bindings after the Embryo bindings > >> >> > are sorted out. > >> >> > > >> >> >> > Now the hard part. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > I'm heavily involved in SecondLife (SL) / OpenSim style > >> >> >> > online 3D virtual worlds. Think MMOG where the users can > >> >> >> > edit the world in world in real time, and it's not really a > >> >> >> > game, more a generic platform. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > I'm working on both client and server side software. I > >> >> >> > REALLY REALLY want to convert the existing crap client and > >> >> >> > server code into something more sane based on EFL. So > >> >> >> > obviously 3D graphics, 3D physics, and scripting of the > >> >> >> > world are important to me. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Bullet physics I think is the way to go, so I'm on the same > >> >> >> > page here. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > I know you have considered 3D stuff, so again, kinda on the > >> >> >> > same page here. Though I wonder if ephysics is suitable > >> >> >> > for this sort of work? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> EPhysics is focused on 2D games and GUI effects. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Does it support 3 dimensions ? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Yes, you can set velocities, impulses, forces in all three > >> >> >> axis. The same for angular stuff. It will move in the 3d > >> >> >> scene, deform in 3 dimensions, collide, etc. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> But... it was not focused on that, so some stuff that is > >> >> >> really easy using ogre, for example, > >> >> >> won't be on EPhysics. Using ogre you can add a new entity > >> >> >> just loading a mesh. > >> >> > > >> >> > I've already been working with a library (libg3d, not to be > >> >> > confused with g3d) for loading arbitrary meshes in dozens of > >> >> > formats, locally or across the network. I'm not sure, but I > >> >> > think Ogre is not so good at that, Irrlicht is a bit better, > >> >> > but libg3d is better still. > >> >> > > >> >> >> Right now we don't support such thing. It's planned to be > >> >> >> done in the future to create shapes. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> But things like applying textures will be harder yet, that's > >> >> >> another thing to be improved > >> >> >> to make ephysics useful for such scenarios. The way it is > >> >> >> now, you would need to create an evas object for each face > >> >> >> you would like to see rendered explicitly. It would > >> >> >> be needed more improvements to set what points of a image > >> >> >> texture would mapped by > >> >> >> each face. And even the support to have evas objects per > >> >> >> face is only implemented > >> >> >> for primitive shapes. > >> >> > > >> >> > Ah, so no UV mapping yet. Evas object per face means a cube > >> >> > has six of them? That gets a bit heavy for high poly count > >> >> > arbitrary meshes. I guess your primitive shapes are simple > >> >> > cubes and things, not SL style proceducal primitives? > >> >> > >> >> Evas map supports only four points. > >> >> So we need an evas object per face. > >> >> For meshes we create many proxies automatically and set to > >> >> parts of the evas object associated to that using > >> >> evas_map_point_image_uv_set > >> >> > >> >> You are right about our primitive shapes. > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> >> I will make a blog post (dedicated to you =) ) with current > >> >> >> state of ephysics, and what > >> >> >> should be expected until the end of this year. So it would > >> >> >> be easier to see what's is easy to do with it right now, and > >> >> >> it will be more accessible to other people too. > >> >> > > >> >> > I read and commented on that. > >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > For graphics I have been looking at Ogre and Irrlicht. > >> >> >> > Irrlict has my preference at the moment, mostly coz it's > >> >> >> > relatively light weight and has good support for old > >> >> >> > hardware, including a decent software renderer. People > >> >> >> > using unsuitable hardware for SL is a common problem. > >> >> >> > Typically lots of people use student / business class > >> >> >> > laptops, not the sort of things that are designed for 3D > >> >> >> > games. Irrlicht has it's own 2D GUI stuff, but obviously > >> >> >> > I'd be ripping that out and using EFL. Perhaps ephysics > >> >> >> > would be a better choice for EFL based software? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> EPhysics has a glue for using Bullet with Evas that will do > >> >> >> the job for most GUI effects > >> >> >> you may want (2D games as well). But for 3D games and related > >> >> >> most probably you'll > >> >> >> be interested in one of this well established 3D engines. > >> >> >> Ogre has OgreBullet to make > >> >> >> it easier to develop stuff using Bullet Physics (not sure if > >> >> >> this project is well maintained). > >> >> >> I know people use to do merge Lua in the recipe as well. > >> >> > > >> >> > I'm guessing ephysics does not have fancy scene management > >> >> > stuff for big scenes, or fancy things like particles, height > >> >> > maps, sky boxes, clouds, etc? > >> >> > >> >> No, nothing of these. > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> >> I don't know much about Irrlicht. > >> >> > > >> >> > I'll likely experiment with it next weekend. > >> >> > > >> >> >> > So I guess my basic question is - would your ideas for > >> >> >> > ephysics be suitable for online 3D virtual worlds, or is it > >> >> >> > limited to simple, mostly 2D games? Perhaps some > >> >> >> > combination of ephysics and Irrlicht is the way I should > >> >> >> > go? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Uhmm... lights can be another limitation. I'm not sure these > >> >> >> engines provide ray tracing, > >> >> >> but we don't. We are stuck to evas map light calculations. No > >> >> >> light reflection, refraction. > >> >> >> Since light don't diffuse when reflecting other surfaces > >> >> >> makes the contrast of light / shadow > >> >> >> a bit ugly for such cases. Bodies between the light source > >> >> >> and others won't produce shadows > >> >> >> as well. > >> >> > > >> >> > Proper raytracing is usually not used for real time stuff, but > >> >> > it's starting to come. SL needs water reflections and > >> >> > refraction, and only recently got proper shadows. Ogre does > >> >> > great water, not sure about Irrlicht yet. > >> >> > > >> >> >> We just support a single camera right now, no zoom in / out > >> >> >> support, rotation ,etc. I know > >> >> >> blender support such things. It's doable, but it's not > >> >> >> planned to be done for now. > >> >> > > >> >> > One of the good things about SL is it's camera controls. I > >> >> > pride myself in being expert with them, so this is very > >> >> > important to me. > >> >> > > >> >> >> I've never worked with any 3d engine, so not sure how far we > >> >> >> are of the state of art of such > >> >> >> frameworks, and what features you would need. If you will > >> >> >> have time to work on EPhysics / Evas > >> >> >> to support your needs, I'm here to help, but I'm not sure how > >> >> >> far we could go to satisfy your needs > >> >> >> and can be a bit frustrating for you if you have to migrate > >> >> >> to Irrlicht after all. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> When you study a bit more about Ogre / Irrlicht and I show > >> >> >> the current status of EPhysics we could evolve with this > >> >> >> discussion and evaluate how far we could go. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I can't see how EPhysics would help you using these graphical > >> >> >> engines. If you are going to use Irrlicht or Ogre, I would > >> >> >> say to forget about EPhysics. > >> >> > > >> >> > Well, my intention is to EFLize the SL stuff. That includes > >> >> > integrating some decent 3D graphics engine. I'll look at > >> >> > things like Irrlicht and the other stuff I'm looking at. > >> >> > Might be a good idea to merge them with ephysics. I suspect > >> >> > Irrlicht and ephysics could complement each other, no reason > >> >> > why the GUI can't have physics as well as the complex 3D > >> >> > world it's on top of. B-) > >> >> > >> >> Yeah, you may be correct. > >> >> We can try to elaborate more about what these libraries provide > >> >> and that could be > >> >> added to ephysics or evas. > >> >> > >> >> But for the next weeks I'll be focused on Edje. > >> > > >> > Fair enough. Nothing is moving quickly for me anyway, so no > >> > hurry. > >> > >> oh, nice > >> > >> > > >> >> When do you plan to start to EFLize the SL stuff ? > >> > > >> > I started last December and January with the EFL based LSL script > >> > engine. That progressed quite fast, but got held up on the > >> > actual interfacing to the existing OpenSim system. The person > >> > that said they where going to do that vanished. OpenSim is C#, > >> > and I really was looking forward to someone else handling that > >> > side of things. I don't like C# much. lol > >> > > >> > Guess I'll have to do the C# stuff myself. Oh well. > >> > > >> > Since then I've mostly been busy with paid work and other things. > >> > Slowly but surely I'm getting back into SL stuff. That's why I > >> > plan on starting to work with Irrlicht next weekend, see if I can > >> > embed it into an Elementary window. Can't call it Errlicht, that > >> > name is already taken for the Eiffel bindings for Irrlicht. > >> > >> yeah, it would be a good name, indeed. > >> > >> > > >> > I did manage a prototype SL user / grid manager with a little > >> > animated 3D image in elementary though. I think it bit rotted. > >> > > >> > Also, I had ephysics and effb compiled on Ubuntu 10.04, but now > >> > that I've upgraded to 12.04 it wont compile. Mind you there > >> > seems to be four basic ways to compile bullet, maybe I picked > >> > the wrong one? I'll have to try that again soon. I'll aim for > >> > an elementary window with Irrlicht 3D world and ephysics 2D GUI > >> > soon, even if it does not do much. > >> > >> I'm using ubuntu 12.04 too, and it is working fine (I'm using > >> bullet rev2537). Built with cmake, looks like autotools is not well > >> maintained. > > > > I'm using the latest release of Bullet 2.81 rev2613. There were > > warnings that using GLUT was obsolete, and that I should use OpenGL > > instead, even though it detected both. You would think it would > > just use OpenGL then. Told it to not use GLUT, and now ephysics > > compiles and runs fine. I also installed OpenCL for it to use, but > > I don't think that's why it failed last time. Yes, built with > > cmake. > > > > Now it's the weekend, I'll squish together Elementary, ephysics, > > Irrlicht, and other stuff to see what I can get. > > Oh, good news =) > > > > > BTW - > > > > make[3]: Entering directory > > `/home/dvs1/e17_svn/SVN/trunk/GAMES/efbb/src/bin' > > geneet.py ../../src/bin/game_world.geneet CC efbb_ql_la-main.lo > > CC efbb_ql_la-level_select_screen.lo > > CC efbb_ql_la-main_screen.lo > > CC efbb_ql_la-cannon.lo > > Traceback (most recent call last): > > File "/opt/e17/bin/geneet.py", line 15, in <module> > > from pyparsing import * > > ImportError: No module named pyparsing > > make[3]: *** [game_world.c] Error 1 > > make[3]: *** Waiting for unfinished jobs.... > > In file included from cannon.c:7:0: > > efbb.h:11:24: fatal error: game_world.h: No such file or directory > > compilation terminated. > > In file included from main.c:8:0: > > efbb.h:11:24: fatal error: game_world.h: No such file or directory > > compilation terminated. > > In file included from level_select_screen.c:5:0: > > efbb.h:11:24: fatal error: game_world.h: No such file or directory > > compilation terminated. > > In file included from main_screen.c:5:0: > > efbb.h:11:24: fatal error: game_world.h: No such file or directory > > compilation terminated. > > > > > > Some one forgot to commit a file in efbb? > > Not really, these files are generated by geneet. > But geneet failed to generate them because pyparsing module couldn't > be imported. > If you are using ubuntu, please install the package python-pyparsing That worked now. -- A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world.
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