On Fri, 23 Jun 2017 10:21:40 -0400 "William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt...@o-sinc.com>
said:
TLDR (stopped part way ).
> Exactly, see your last line, using same config daemon, means they
> should be used together. Using with other stuff may have issues.
my spacebar has gone nuts... so short it is.
OpenOffice and LibreOffice DO have issues. look there for your presentation
bugs. i save to pdf and present as a pdf on my external screen. it works a
charm, and so does e.
saying that e multi screen works a charm on all my systems and then you
responding with "not so sure about that" is pretty insulting as you are pretty
much flat out calling me a liar. get your head our of your rear.
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2017 12:23:43 +0900
> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <ras...@rasterman.com> wrote:
> >
> > and e works without sddm's interference. know HOW it works... and
> > it'd be sddm getting in the way (e uses xrandr backlight controls if
> > xrandr supports it - intel drivers only, otherwise executes a setuid
> > root tool to mess with /sys files to do it). simotek told you the
> > same thing - likely sddm running some config daemon and keeping it
> > running that monitors backlight levels and keeps re-applying hem but
> > it is the same config daemon that kde for example uses.
>
> Exactly, see your last line, using same config daemon, means they
> should be used together. Using with other stuff may have issues.
>
> > > Why not allow users to do the same, boot to E lock screen. Or
> > > provide a systemd.service for startx and E. That is all I was
> > > suggesting.
> >
> > i personally don't want to. i dont want to encourage it.
>
> Then why mention it? I am curious what is provided for users, now how
> developers go about this personally. I could work on entrance
> privately. I am making it public for others. My interest is others.
>
> > this wasn't speculation. we directly talked and he wanted spawny to
> > be a separate stand-alone thing that didnt depend one or efl... if
> > he's changed his mind, he can say so, but he was very adamant about
> > that ... and that's fine. i'm not getting in to doing a login manager
> > any time soon so there is no point in doing so until then. if yoz has
> > patches and work ready earlier - fantastic.
>
> No time spent on this anytime soon, understood.
> .
> > yes and my philosophy isnt to make a desktop from a whole bit of
> > disparate parts but to make something integrated. e has a very
> > different design philosophy. applying whatever kde and gnome do does
> > not apply.
>
> They are both different, Gnome provides GDM as Gnome project.
> KDE provides SDDM from an outside 3rd party project.
>
> > no plans at this point to do anything... when the day comes i'll
> > take a look. if someone is actively doing work then steering them i n
> > a direction i'd be happy with is good.
>
> Already said
>
> > > Mine suspends now with entrance or sddm?
> >
> > i have no idea what you have working there and it's details (can it
> > suspend itself or is it relying on systemd doing it automatically
> > etc.) systemd has a set of defaults that unless you ovrride it via
> > dbus and tell it to stop it'll do on certain system events (power
> > button, lid close etc.). i don't know what you have. but systemd
> > doesnt do backlight dimming . i don't think it knows to "suspend if
> > battery low" either. e already has all of this and recycling it makes
> > sense.
>
> I do not use systemd
>
> > > > screen dims appropriately and blanks while not logged in (and can
> > > > be configured by the admin with some clicky pointy buttons in the
> > > > ui).
> > >
> > > Mine goes to sleep as well entrance or sddm, not sure I care to
> > > adjust delay. Think it can also be set in X config.
> >
> > but no dimming. x will blank/dpms or not. not dim.
>
> The only aspect of dimming that does not work is they keyboard
> bindings. Most any laptop with dimming ability has hot keys for such.
> That is more an X thing. I have hardware volume buttons I did not
> configure and do not work under a DM or E.
>
> > > > they should be able to manually shut down, reboot, suspend,
> > > > hibernate etc. from the login screen.
> > >
> > > Most all have that ability as does entrance now. I have not gone
> > > over that code, but I do not believe its "loading" it from anything
> > > special. The server does provide it to the client. I have to see
> > > how the server obtains such.
> >
> > and they are duplicating the infra that e already has done and
> > finished (use systemd if there, if not use its own setuid root utils
> > to initiate these)
>
> Why I suggested it being in a central place for all to use.
>
> > > > it should be able to be configured to
> > > > handle multi screen setups as the user desires (have 3 screens?
> > >
> > > I already have more than 1 display most times. Many DMs have issues
> > > there. E alone has some serious issues with multiple displays. Such
> > > that I had to do a presentation last night on E, using KDE/Plasma.
> >
> > e works an absolute charm n very machine i have with multiple
> > displays.
>
> Not so sure about that
>
> > i do presentations all the time.
>
> What are you using OpenOffice or some other? OpenOffice has serious
> issues, why I used KDE recently. I could not get OpenOffice to output
> the slide show to one display while keeping notes on the other. I could
> not get it to mirror displays nothing. I could not get it to fill even
> 1 screen normally. Thus even if I cloned displays in E I could still
> not use it. Thankfully I discovered that before display. I can send
> screenshots and maybe record desktop on my dual display desktop as an
> example.
>
> > i do no xrandr has many
> > issues if you dont "Execute xrandr" (the extension lib refuses to
> > update shadowed info because xserver refuses to update its monitor
> > info unless yo poll it like a new xrandr run dows and thus you dont
> > get events updating monitor state - u has an action to bind to a
> > hotkey if your drivers do this). i can explain in gory detail but
> > trust me
> > - xserver side is broken in vary implmentations like this.
>
> FYI I use a script to toggle my laptop and external display daily. E
> spits out some error I have asked about. Maybe need to drop return, it
> errors on 1 and 0.
>
> $ cat scripts/display_toggle.sh
> #!/bin/bash
>
> LDSP="eDP1"
> HDMI="HDMI2"
>
> if [[ -n "$(xrandr | grep ${HDMI}\ connected)" ]] &&
> [[ -n "$(xrandr | grep ${LDSP}\ connected | grep 1920)" ]]; then
> xrandr --output "${HDMI}" --auto --output "${LDSP}" --off
> sudo /etc/X11/xinit/99-synergyc
> else
> xrandr --output "${LDSP}" --auto --output "${HDMI}" --off
> sudo killall -9 synergyc
> fi
>
> return 0
>
> I did this with KDE as well. Desktops try to remember this and apply it
> themselves. Which means when I plug in another monitor it tries to
> apply improper settings, like it being turned off etc. You can see this
> on the video of my recent presentation when I leave KDE and switch to
> E. It takes a bit before I get the display to work.
>
> It just worked logging into KDE. Though I have had to delete KDE screen
> session files. Early days of plasma, sometimes would log in and it
> would turn off laptop display. E was doing this with external.
>
> I was doing this in front of people... live... Not ideal!
>
> > > Ideally for login just needs cloned for the different ones. Though
> > > some like SDDM are a bit different and Entrance has acted funny at
> > > times. SDDM if you type on one, it does not show on the other,
> > > moot.
> >
> > maybe you don't. maybe its a workstation with a fixed layout. ... the
> > point is you have all the config tools and han dling already in e.
> > why rewrite it again for a greeter. rewrite a battery display/meter.
> > rewrite a bunch of thing as i explained.
>
> No disagreement there, I dislike code duplication.
>
> > you are not going to convince me a minimalist greeter is better for
> > users in the big-picture/long term.
>
> Yet that is what they like, lightdm, and slim are two of the more
> popular ones not bound or from a desktop env. LXDM is also light weight.
>
> > i dont consider it overkill. i consider it essential to a nice
> > desktop/whatever environment.
>
> WAIT WHAT? If its essential with so many features, how come nothing
> exists now? You kind of made my point that a DM is essential to a nice
> desktop environment. Thanks :)
>
> > what do you do when you're on a tablet with no keyboard? how will you
> > type in a login name? i can go on... (answer -> you can't. of course
> > e must provide this vkbd anyway for the desktop so it can provide it
> > for the login monde too - weekeyboard seems broken atm tho - but when
> > fixed you recycle the same support).
>
> Good question since my laptop can flip around.... When something exists
> and works I can use that.
>
> What happens if a EFL app runs on a tablet or something without
> keyboard? Use some 3rd party solution?
>
> > i belive its wrong to put all the specialty stuff into efl. efl is
> > big enough as is . once its in efl we have to main ta n a stable api
> > and abi and i absolutely don t want to do that for such niche stuff
> > that doesnt NEED to be there. i've given this a hell of a lot of
> > thought over many years.
>
> Maybe an optional layer, efl-extensions? Like the python-elm-extensions.
> You are contradicting yourself. Saying this is essential yet niche?
>
> I think all you have stated applies to EFL apps in general, running in
> E, or other env. Like take EPYMC as an example, It uses EFL, not E. You
> can log into a desktop session with just EPYMC.
>
> Should it not get all the DPMS, weekeyboard, etc like E?
>
> > and i think it should b e even more extensive than that. re-use the
> > same settings the desktop env also offers (well a subset of them that
> > apply to the login mode). it's easier for a user to configure - its
> > the same thing they did for their desktop (if they use e).
>
> Sure, so all that should be there if they log into E, EPYMC, or some
> other EFL application as an example.
>
> > > They provide various ones, but if you install Gnome or KDE, I think
> > > a specific one is pulled in. Unless you specifically bring in
> > > another.
> >
> > depends on the pkg you install and the distro... but you still can
> > install whatver you like anyway.
>
> Yes but some may have no idea. Someone coming from say Windows or Apple
> will not have a favorite DM. They may not know what a DM is in general.
> Just installing a desktop and using what ever comes with that.
>
> > i don't blame e. i blame sddm.
>
> Exactly! If SDDM blamed E, then get stuck in this wonderful blame game.
> For a software combination that should just not be used together.
>
> > suffice to say i wont be looking into it though... because i've
> > seen just this sort of thing before where leftover display manager
> > daemons hang about interfering with things. seen it before... smells
> > of the same thing.
>
> Exactly, but it does not cause issues in other envs. Thus rather than
> anyone waste time. They software should not be used together. They have
> incompatibilities that likely neither side will fix.
>
> Which brings me back to saying using a DM for your intended ENV to
> ensure no such conflicts. To ensure any issues Devs will address. To
> not get stuck in a blame game with no one taking time to fix.
>
> --
> William L. Thomson Jr.
--
------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com
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