On 4/14/07, Yen-Ju Chen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 4/14/07, Günther Noack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> > Am 14.04.2007 um 15:19 schrieb Jesse Ross:
> > > Unless you've imagined some better way, the alternative you're
> > > proposing is that when an email/IM comes in, a notification pops up
> > > saying "move this file where you want" -- that could get really
> > > disruptive considering the amount of email some people get... and
> > > some people will just let the notifications stack up anyway, because
> > > that's just how they work.
> >
> > I admit I didn't have document types in mind which usually have more
> > than 10 new documents a day which are not explicitely created by the
> > user. :-> Do you want to use the project manager / OpenSpace as the
> > primary application to manage you e-mail? I'm a bit concerned about
> > the suitability of a generic application for such a specialized
> > purpose, but I'm really
> >
> > I agree that in this scenario, putting everything in one place
> > automatically can't be avoided. I also agree that tagging is a
> > reasonable and possibly a better solution than hierarchies. (We
> > should think about filter rules for automatic tagging, though.)
> >
> > When I talked about forcing the user to find a place for files, I was
> > also thinking about actions like downloading files using a web
> > browser. The type of action that creates less than five files and is
> > invoked explicitly by the user. Web browsers like Firefox avoid the
> > save dialog by placing everything on the desktop automatically. I
> > think that in cases like these, using drag&drop is a better choice.
> >
> > Please don't forget that a flat directory structure doesn't justify
> > not caring about choosing a "location" for the file. A flat structure
> > with tags is isomorphic to a hierarchical file structure with depth 1
> > where files can be placed in multiple folders at once (=hard link).
> > (This concept in mind, an untagged file is located in the top level
> > folder / desktop, a tagged file is placed in one or more subfolders /
> > projects.) So just creating untagged files when downloading them
> > using a web browser is again cluttering the desktop.
> >
> > Maybe there will be a need to create untagged (=Desktop) files every
> > now and then, but we shouldn't make it too easy.
> >
> > The reason I dislike cluttered desktops is a problem I observed on
> > myself: Whenever I log in, I discover all the cool things I
> > downloaded when I was logged in the last time. Instead of directly
> > doing what I turned the computer on for, I usually take a look at
> > these files, not doing anything useful. I don't want my computer to
> > encourage me to play. I want to work. I want a clean desktop.
> >
> > PDFs, images and music from the internet? Yes, please. But don't show
> > them to me if I don't explicitly request to see them. This is why -
> > in my opinion - nothing should go untagged by default.
> >
> > Now how do you get users to not storing things without giving a tag?
> > Simply don't allow it to them or at least make it hard to do. I have
> > no definite answer on how this can be achieved yet. We could delete
> > untagged files on a regular basis. This would be the hard-liner
> > approach. Maybe it's enough to place a bold "temporary documents"
> > label on the desktop. Maybe the mouse acceleration should be slowed
> > down when the desktop is in front, so that people work in projects
> > more often.
> >
> > What's your opinion on this? Can you really work with unsorted and
> > untagged files all over your desktop?
>
> 1. I agree with "direct manipulation" principle.
> In that case, unix symbolic linking is also against this principle.
> Tag is a better idea, but it is better to be handled by file system,
> ex. ZFS. So we just need to wait.
> Everything is the real object, even though it may show up in
> many places due to multiple tags. But throwing it to trash can
> is throwing the real object. If you don't want to see it at
> certain place, just remove the tags.
> 2. Organizing objects is a hard work. That is why I propose "archive".
> Whenever you receive or create a file, it can be in "Inbox"
> (see below) or some place you like to call it.
> You can tag it, rename it, or do whatever as you do in a file manager.
> Once you decide this object is worthy to keep for the future,
> you "archive" it, and it will be handled by Etoile system.
> It is an automatic organization.
> It may still show up in "Inbox" if you have a tag on it.
> If you want to find it and you don't exactly remember what it is,
> you can use object manager to search.
> If you remember it as a music, you may open a music manager,
> or photo manager for image, or address manager for contact.
> Where it is in the file system depends on implementation.
> But the point is you can always find it with search or tag
> after it is archived.
> 3. We are going to have different manager for different type of objects.
> A generic one (object manager) is never as good as
> a specialized one when it comes to specific objects,
> say mail, RSS, image, music, etc.
> Object manager is useful only when you don't exactly remember
> what it is. Or you want to manipulate objects with different types,
> say, everything I received this morning, or all things tagged "tax".
> 4. "Inbox" is just a place to put your stuff
> before you decide you archive it, doesn't matter how you call it.
> Again, where it is depends on implementation.
> But it will show up at the same place, probably on your desktop.
> Since everything is "real" object with tag, it may already be
> organized by Etoile, or not, depending on implementation.
> My point is that a "archive" action will remove it
> from that place ("inbox", or "desktop").
> Then you rely on managers to find it later.
> If out implementation is organizing everything when you receive it,
> then "archive" is simply removing a tag of "inbox".
> But I doubt it is going to work in current system.
> The realistic implementation is when you "archive" it,
> Etoile will move it into a certain place so every manager knows.
> 5. We need to clearly separate the idea of "view/editor" and "manager'.
> When we discuss document-centric issue,
> we are discussing "view/editor", not "manager".
> In that case, Web browser is manager to local and remote
> html files. Mail agent is manager to manage mail.
> So do music manager, photo manager, address manager.
> "view/editor" deal with single document, PDF, HTML.
> In many case, the document is very simple, therefore,
> manager also serves as "viewer/editor".
> In that case, RSS reader is a manager,
> RSS and ATOM are document. They are in a single application.
> Same as web browser and individual HTML files locally and remotely.
> We are not going to use "document-centric" view/editor as web browser.
> If it is a case, it is going to be a lossy web browser.
> Address book is a manager, a chat window is a document.
>
> I try to cover every situation we talked about.
> Am I missing any corner case ?
>
> Yen-Ju
To elaborate further, let's look at dictionary reader.
Dictionary reader is a manager while each definition is a document (object).
Because it is "out-of-reach" to manage hundred thousand definitions,
dictionary reader offers only a "search" function.
How smart the "search" can be is another issue.
It is an extreme example that you don't organize things yourself.
It is automatically organized and you only search it.
If I am writing a book and need a few word definitions on hand,
I can tag a certain definitions in the dictionary reader, say "book writing".
Then I can use object manager to view everything tagged as 'book writing",
my draft, photos, and a few definitions.
If I have viewer/editor for each object tagged as "book writing",
I can put my draft in the center, photos on the right, and
definitions on the left.
In this case, we need viewer for single definitions.
It is equivalent to you cut pieces of paper from you dictionary
and put it on your desktop in real world.
Or we can just put the dictionary reader (manager) on the left
if we don't have a viewer for individual definition.
It is equivalent to put your dictionary on your desktop
without cutting piece of paper from it in real world.
You can substitute "dictionary reader" and "definition"
with "address book" and "business card",
or "music manager" and "music", etc.
It works the same.
Once an object is in the Etoile, it works this way in my suggestion.
And "archive" is how you decide to put your object in Etoile.
Yen-Ju
>
> >
> > -Günther
> >
> >
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> >
>
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