EV Digest 2832
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Power Meters
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) NBEAA June meeting @ Health & Harmony Festival - announcement
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Vancouver, BC EV Show: Saturday, June 7th!
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Evercel MB80 dimensions
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Sparrows are worth *that* much?!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) EV fiero with NiCd's update and Trojans for sale
by Sherri J Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Power Meters
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery pack sizing
by Lin Tse Hsu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: equalization on a hybrid
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Batteries (and caps too!)
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: equalization on a hybrid
by "Alaric G. Weigle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: equalization on a hybrid
by "Alaric G. Weigle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Battery pack sizing
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Watch your quoting!
by "Mike Brandon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Power Meters
by "Mike Brandon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Power Meters
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: equalization on a hybrid
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Watch your quoting!
by "Eric Penne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Power Meters
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) OT: bandwidth
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Northern Sun poster
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Parallel Inverters?
by Ryan Fulcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
by "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Battery pack sizing questions
by "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
by "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: First EV ride from Oz.
by "Mike Brandon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Lithium battery monitoring? ...
by "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Supercaps vs AGM for drag racing?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
31) Re: Parallel Inverters?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
32) Re: Yet Another kind of EV
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
33) Re: NiZn charge algorithm
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
34) Sealed 6V 200Ah batteries on eBay
by "Russell Levine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
35) NiZn Algorithm
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
36) Re: battery cooling
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Sherri J Hower wrote:
>
> Gordon,
> I bought a couple of these meters and
> was happy with their appearance and accuracy.
> I paid $70 which was cheaper than most of the other
> panel mount units that I priced.
There are of course a number of "made in China" digital panel meters for
very low prices. A major difficulty with most of them is that they
require an isolated 5v to 9v power supply (one that does not share a
ground with the voltage or current to be measured). They also have very
cheap references, and drift with temperature.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The June meeting of the NBEAA will be part of the Health &
Harmony Festival at the Sonoma County Fairgrounds. The NBEAA has
been invited to exhibit EVs as part of the EcoVillage at this
event on the 14th (when our meeting is scheduled) and 15th June,
from 10am - 7pm. There will also be a Biodiesel exhibit.
Attracting over 20,000 attendees in 2002, the Health & Harmony
Music & Arts Festival has become a well known and established
northern California family event. Over the past 24 years, the
Health & Harmony Festival has offered an educational and
entertaining experience along with the opportunity to purchase
unique products and services not readily available elsewhere.
The goal of the Festival is to provide a quality event that the
whole family can enjoy while learning how to create more health
and harmony within self, community, and the environment. All
booth applicants are juried to assure a high quality show with a
wide variety of products.
Contact for the EcoVillage is Portia Sinnott.
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Location:
Sonoma County Fairgrounds,
Santa Rosa, CA 95407
Date: 14th June from 10am-7pm (also 15th June)
Contact: Portia Sinnott
Tel: (707) 824 9931
Web site: http://www.harmonyfestival.com
Driving directions:
Take Highway 101 to Santa Rosa.
Exit 101 onto Highway 12, Eastbound, towards Sonoma.
Exit Highway 12 at the Downtown exit.
Upon reaching the surface street, Bennett Valley Road, you will
come to a stoplight, and just in front of you on your right
will be the Sonoma County Fairgrounds.
Proceed to the next traffic light and turn right onto
Brookwood Avenue.
Attendee parking will be located on the left side of the road.
If you are coming by Highway 12, Westbound, take the Downtown
exit, and turn left at the stoplight. This will lead you to the
entrance to the Sonoma County Fairgrounds.
Festival layout at:
http://www.harmonyfestival.com/map-hh2003.htm
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Just a quick reminder to everyone that the annual EV show and ride
event, REV!2003, is happening this Saturday, June 7th, in Vancouver, BC.
Same location as last year (and the year before that...): 1601 Ontario
Street, on part of the Molson Indy course just a short walk South of
Science World.
Same general schedule as years past:
- exhibitors arrive/register/setup bright and early (8:00-9:30-ish)
- student Electrathon race from about 10:00-11:00
- EV parade, power demos, tractor pull etc.
- open Electrathon race from about 3:00-4:00
- award presentation & E-bike raffle draw
As usual, a BBQ follows for exhibitors and volunteers.
I believe that an email reminder (or two) have already been sent to our
regular guests by the event organisers, however, if you haven't yet
received an invite/reminder, please consider this to be one!
The forecast seems to be for warm, sunny weather, so come equipped with
sun protection!
For more info, please see the Vancouver Electric Vehicle Association
website:
<http://www.veva.bc.ca>
or email me for more details or to confirm your intent to attend as an
exhibitor or competitor.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ed Thorpe was bugging me to measure my MB80's to make sure that they conformed
to the spec sheet, and a good thing. Evercel lists the dimensions as L=10.24",
W=5.82", and H= 7.88". I get the same ***except width which is 6.75 inches***.
By copy of this posting I am informing them.
Also attached are URL's for two additional pics. The first shows 3 batts
grouped together and some of the 1/16" thick copper strips I plan to double or
triple up as interconnects. The longtitudinal "valley" between adjacent
batteries looks like the bottom of the slightly sloped sides is 1" wide and 5/8"
deep which might help the space challenged on installation, as a spot to route
heavy welding cable. The lower left batt still has the top plastic plate,
ummmm, fallen off and shows the intercell connections. The second shows one of
the "lifting ears" for attaching a strap to lift the battery. Alas this is a
wee bit higher than the epoxy potting and is going to have a life changing
meeting with the abrasive wheel on my Dremel. That lifting ear would DEFINITELY
short out any sort of lug or interconnect I would want to use.
Fred
http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/3MB80s.JPG
http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/mb80%20lifting_ears.JPG
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All it takes is one ignorant person with money. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----------------------------------------------------
This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Batie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 1:51 AM
Subject: Re: Sparrows are worth *that* much?!
> On Mon, Jun 02, 2003 at 01:22:45AM -0700, KARLA JACKSONLEVINE wrote:
> > Starting bid is enough to buy 2 or 3 "normal" used EVs:
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2417710184
>
> Needs a new battery pack, and wants $21K? In his dreams!
>
> --
> Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
> alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
> PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
> 27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
>
> To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we
> are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic
> and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
> -Theodore Roosevelt, 26th US President (1858-1919)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim stopped by tonight in the electric Fiero
to pick up some heatsinks for the EVT15 GE control (He
picked the right seller, I gave him the heatsinks
for free and the IGBT's to repair the control when
the last modules failed).
Anyhow, the car drives really nice with plenty of
acceleration and over 50 miles range.
I hope to get some pics up on my website soon.
He has room for 2-4 more NiCd's (this would be
22-24 total for 132-144Vdc).
His pack of T-145 Trojans are only 6 months old and
probably have less than 300 miles on them.
He's not on the EVDL, so send me an email if your
interested. He asked me how much they are worth,
but I told him I didn't know, so make an offer.
Rod
P.S.
This is not Sherri posting, she doesn't give a fat
rats As... about EV's, but I haven't changed it on the
list yet :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2003-06-02 at 16:13, Lee Hart wrote:
> Sherri J Hower wrote:
> >
> > Gordon,
> > I bought a couple of these meters and
> > was happy with their appearance and accuracy.
> > I paid $70 which was cheaper than most of the other
> > panel mount units that I priced.
>
> There are of course a number of "made in China" digital panel meters for
> very low prices. A major difficulty with most of them is that they
> require an isolated 5v to 9v power supply (one that does not share a
> ground with the voltage or current to be measured). They also have very
> cheap references, and drift with temperature.
Datel offer a line of two wire meters (draws power from the lines it's
measuring) that go up to at least 264 volts. They have a 20 volt model
that should be fine for monitoring your accessory battery and at least
two high voltage models. a 30V to 199.9V (o.1V resolution) and a 30V to
264V (1V resolution). Each of them cost $50.
I don't know anything about their voltage references though.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This should go in the FAQ or at least be remembered
the next time someone (like Jerry) starts touting the
indestructibility of NiCads again.
From:
"Ralph Merwin"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Victor
Tikhonov writes:
>
> Why not buy few same NiCds
just to replace damaged ones? THis is the
> only
> expense then, no rebuilds
needed. May be you can find used ones of
> the same type.
I did buy used replacements. I
changed out the first three modules
that died and tried to
reinitialize the pack. Two more modules died
in the process (9 amps for 15
hours). This led me to believe that
the whole pack was soon going to
die, module by module.
Then I learned that my car's
configuration was drawing too much current
for too long a time for the
SAFTs, which, according to a Brusa
engineer,
leads to "dramatically reduced
lifetimes".
If I want to continue to use
NiCads, I would need to change to larger
modules and add more of them to
keep my peak current draw below the
SAFT 'continuous' rating.
Many other people report that
NiCads are almost indestructible, which
is why I used them. I assume
something about my configuration or use
patterns is wrong, and the
theory of damaging them with excessive
currents is certainly a
plausible explanation.
It would be interesting to hear
others. I do have the option of
replacing the entire pack with
another used pack, but unless I know why
my old pack died and can change
something to fix the problem, it would
be pointless.
Ralph
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
http://calendar.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
>> Umm nice Lee, where's the capacity increase? There should be some.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> I can only say what data sheet says - 5 cycles.
I've completed 3 conditioning cycles, and see no capacity increase, and
no change in internal resistance (i.e it is still quite high).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
sae wrote:
> I've been reading all the back and forth about equalizing lithium
> batteries and it's got me thinking about our current project.
> We are building a parallel hybrid with an AC Propulsions drive
> and a tdi biodiesel engine with a 360V Odyssey PC625 pack.
What is an Odyssey PC625? What kind of battery?
> On our other cars we never worried about equalizers on the batteries
> and let our NG3 charger take care of it.
Then they will most likely die early. :-(
> What should we do on the hybrid to keep the batteries happy?
It all depends on what kind of batteries you have. Flooded lead-acid or
nicads will be the most forgiving, sealed lead-acids next, and nimh or
lion will require a balancing and equalizing system to avoid serious
battery problems.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep, so used to kWh, that I missed that when I reread. Good catch! Off
by a factor of 1000...
Seth
Mark Thomasson wrote:
>
> See embedded comments.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Seth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 7:40 PM
> Subject: Re: Batteries (and caps too!)
> <snip>
>
> >
> > 8831Joules/3600sec *watt-sec/joule =2.45kWh
> >
>
> Should the results be in Wh, not kWh?
>
> > 2.45kwh/0.65kg gives 3.78 kwh/kg
> >
> <snip>
>
> >
> > If I did my math wrong, someone please correct me...
>
> Otherwise, looks ok to me. Mark T.
>
> >
> > Seth
> >
> >
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
What is an Odyssey PC625? What kind of battery?
A quick Google search reveals it to be a Hawker marine SLA battery
designed for jetski watercraft.
http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=ODY-PC625
http://www.battery-usa.com/odyssey.htm
-Alaric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, they were being used beyond their limits and the battery is
designed as an EV battery, so SAFT probably has a good idea what the
limits are. Ralph admitted as much. He had too low a voltage and was
drawing too much current too often.
Seth
Lin Tse Hsu wrote:
>
> This should go in the FAQ or at least be remembered
> the next time someone (like Jerry) starts touting the
> indestructibility of NiCads again.
>
> From:
> "Ralph Merwin"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Victor
> Tikhonov writes:
> >
> > Why not buy few same NiCds
> just to replace damaged ones? THis is the
> > only
> > expense then, no rebuilds
> needed. May be you can find used ones of
> > the same type.
>
> I did buy used replacements. I
> changed out the first three modules
> that died and tried to
> reinitialize the pack. Two more modules died
> in the process (9 amps for 15
> hours). This led me to believe that
> the whole pack was soon going to
> die, module by module.
>
> Then I learned that my car's
> configuration was drawing too much current
> for too long a time for the
> SAFTs, which, according to a Brusa
> engineer,
> leads to "dramatically reduced
> lifetimes".
>
> If I want to continue to use
> NiCads, I would need to change to larger
> modules and add more of them to
> keep my peak current draw below the
> SAFT 'continuous' rating.
>
> Many other people report that
> NiCads are almost indestructible, which
> is why I used them. I assume
> something about my configuration or use
> patterns is wrong, and the
> theory of damaging them with excessive
> currents is certainly a
> plausible explanation.
>
> It would be interesting to hear
> others. I do have the option of
> replacing the entire pack with
> another used pack, but unless I know why
> my old pack died and can change
> something to fix the problem, it would
> be pointless.
>
> Ralph
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
> http://calendar.yahoo.com
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>So if you use Outlook, please use its setup to ^turn off^ message
>quoting, and selectively copy and paste the text to which you want to
>respond into your reply.
Lol. Well it is widely used. I use it on both my PC and my Mac. Wouldn't
it be easier for the one or two people left in the world that can't
handle html, and quoting, just to upgrade rather than have the rest of
the world disable their computers to such extremes?
Now don't everyone go postal on me. I'm not kidding, but I mean it in a
friendly way :)
Mike Brandon
Joplin Missouri
81 VW
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Those are sweet! Where did you see the prices?
Has anyone looked at the Digital Voltage and Amperage meters from DATEL
(http://www.datel.com)? They look fairly nice, but I would prefer a
price
closer to the OEM price then the full list price. I guess I am a sucker
for Blue LEDs. :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2003-06-02 at 16:13, Lee Hart wrote:
> > Sherri J Hower wrote:
> > >
> > > Gordon,
> > > I bought a couple of these meters and
> > > was happy with their appearance and accuracy.
> > > I paid $70 which was cheaper than most of the other
> > > panel mount units that I priced.
> >
> > There are of course a number of "made in China" digital panel meters for
> > very low prices. A major difficulty with most of them is that they
> > require an isolated 5v to 9v power supply (one that does not share a
> > ground with the voltage or current to be measured). They also have very
> > cheap references, and drift with temperature.
>
> Datel offer a line of two wire meters (draws power from the lines it's
> measuring) that go up to at least 264 volts. They have a 20 volt model
> that should be fine for monitoring your accessory battery and at least
> two high voltage models. a 30V to 199.9V (o.1V resolution) and a 30V to
> 264V (1V resolution). Each of them cost $50.
>
> I don't know anything about their voltage references though.
The Datel meters are a good product. I wasn't referring to them, but to
the no-name ones sold by many hobby suppliers for under $10. The low
price should be the hint that you aren't getting quality.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alaric G. Weigle wrote:
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> >What is an Odyssey PC625? What kind of battery?
> >
> >
> A quick Google search reveals it to be a Hawker marine SLA battery
> designed for jetski watercraft.
Thanks, Alaric. If that's the battery they have, then they can get away
with no balancing or equalization for a while, but the pack will die an
early death. Many EVs have tried this, and learned the hard way.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've used almost every different email client available in Windows and
Linux and in every one, the best results have been with "plain text"
email. Why? Because plain text is easy to implement and has consistent
results (until lee bombs us with fixed width art :P . The point is that
email is designed for plain text. Attachements were a hack on email.
HTML is just more text that makes the other text look pretty. It is not
needed and unwanted by many. Microsoft has had a history of problems with
html email with embedded activeX components. Eliminate the activeX
components in html mail by not using html mail. Eliminating attachments
will also alleviate most virus problems. This is why the EVList removes
attachments.
Never the less not everybody is using unlimited fixed cost internet
connections. Extra text causes extra download times. There are lots of
competent web admins on the list that will be happy to post pictures and
other graphics. This allows the people on slower connections to "choose"
to view the graphics.
>>So if you use Outlook, please use its setup to ^turn off^ message
>> quoting, and selectively copy and paste the text to which you want to
>> respond into your reply.
>
> Lol. Well it is widely used. I use it on both my PC and my Mac. Wouldn't
> it be easier for the one or two people left in the world that can't
> handle html, and quoting, just to upgrade rather than have the rest of
> the world disable their computers to such extremes?
>
>
> Now don't everyone go postal on me. I'm not kidding, but I mean it in a
> friendly way :)
>
>
> Mike Brandon
> Joplin Missouri
> 81 VW
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Prices are on the right side of the chart. Single unit/OEM quantities.
On Mon, 2003-06-02 at 19:48, Mike Brandon wrote:
> Those are sweet! Where did you see the prices?
>
> Has anyone looked at the Digital Voltage and Amperage meters from DATEL
> (http://www.datel.com)? They look fairly nice, but I would prefer a
> price
> closer to the OEM price then the full list price. I guess I am a sucker
>
> for Blue LEDs. :-)
>
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(although, is it really 'off topic'? The internet is the ultimate 'electric
vehicle'...)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Brandon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 7:46 PM
Subject: RE: Watch your quoting!
> >So if you use Outlook, please use its setup to ^turn off^ message
> >quoting, and selectively copy and paste the text to which you want to
> >respond into your reply.
>
> Lol. Well it is widely used. I use it on both my PC and my Mac. Wouldn't
> it be easier for the one or two people left in the world that can't
> handle html, and quoting, just to upgrade rather than have the rest of
> the world disable their computers to such extremes?
If there were only one or two people left, I'd agree.
But there aren't. There are literally hundreds of thousands of older PCs out
there still in service - basically anything before a pentium - that can't
really handle outlook, but can still run a terminal program.
I often use Pine myself when I'm on the road and having to dial up -
especially when I'm reading the list from other countries. When I was in
Thailand, I was still able to keep up with mailing lists because I used
pine - if I'd tried to use webmail or something similar, I'd have been
hopelessly lagged.
It's worth remembering that in precisely the places we *want* to see EVs
flourish - developing countries like Thailand, Vietnam, and China - people
often pay for their bandwidth by the megabit, or actually have to go through
considerable hardship to get high bandwidth connections. In most of rural
China, the only way to get broadband (which is the only way to get more than
2 KB/s or so) is to pay extrordinary sums for sattelite feeds. The overhead
involved in HTML mail actually *does* matter to these people!
In other words, there are many more than one or two people who for one
reason or another might want to conserve bandwidth.
A better question is, given the luck I've had on evtech with using a simple
perl script to de-encapsulate the plaintext automagically, why this list
doesn't use a similar technique so that individuals wouldn't have to deal
with configuring their mail clients. List Op, are you listening? I'd be
happy to give you a copy.. ;-)
Just my 2 wh
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.northernsun.com/index.cgi/4437.html
If you look very closely, you can see the car in the midground has 'EV" on
the side of it!
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was wondering if there is a "good" way to use multiple
DC-AC inverters to support larger loads?
I have some "cheap" 400W inverters from target,
Is there any way to use two of them for an 800W loads?
How about five of them for a 2000W load?
It's just that a big 2000W inverter will cost me a few grand,
but 5*400W inverters would cost just $250+paralleling gear.
I would like to electrify my boat, add some PV panels, some
batteries, and use the pack to power the AC devices via inverters.
Am I going to break something if I try to simply parallel
the outputs? How about sending the outputs to a multi winding
transformer? Would the inverters "naturally" sync their output
sine waves, or blow eachother to kindom come.
Sorry if this is a little OT, but If anyone knows how to do such
a hack, someone here does! Might also be usefull as a cheap AC
drive system? no? 110v AC motor + Inverter + 12v battery?
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I concur with Lee. I have not much capacity change in the three cycles that
I have completed.
Cycle #1 71.3Ahr
Cycle #2 72.6Ahr
Cycle #3 72.7Ahr
I am only discharging to 3.00V @ 27A. So my data might be different than
Lee's.
Chris Brune
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> >> Umm nice Lee, where's the capacity increase? There should be some.
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > I can only say what data sheet says - 5 cycles.
>
> I've completed 3 conditioning cycles, and see no capacity increase, and
> no change in internal resistance (i.e it is still quite high).
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
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At 09:17 PM 6/2/2003 -0700, Chris Brune wrote:
I concur with Lee. I have not much capacity change in the three cycles
that
I have completed.
Cycle #1 71.3Ahr
Cycle #2 72.6Ahr
Cycle #3 72.7Ahr
I am only discharging to 3.00V @ 27A. So my data might be different than
Lee's.
What is your charging regimen?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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Cliff Rassweiler writes:
> Don't forget to hit F5 when you are in the parameters page to save the
> changes to the inverter's EPROM. F2 will save your changes on the
computer.
> Cliff
Thanks for the reminder--I'll get up to speed eventually! It's great to have
a motor controller that lets you control all these things, has selectable
displays, and the statistics as well!
Victor Tikhonov writes:
(I'll also try to actually look at the setting prior to posting to the list!
(It was 280A, not 200A as I thought)).
> Note, the motor current displayed is peak (inverter limits it to
> 400A, or 280A rms).
>
> Inverter reduces battery voltage, so motor voltage is less and
> motor current is more than battery voltage and current respectively
> > (I'd really like to limit the battery current, so I'll have
> > to look at all the cryptic parameters to see if there is such a limit).
> They are not too cryptic - Ibat_pos is positive (out of battery,
> i.e. driving) battery current, Ibat_neg is negative (into the battery
> i.e. regen) battery current.
I had the right parameters after all--I just need to hit F5!
> > I plan to use a LiIon pack of 86 cells for 309V nominal. These seem to
> > have high internal resistance and the temperature increases with current
due
> > to the exothermic reactions as well as the cell resistance. The
manufacturer
> > has only published up to 1.5C constant current curves.
> > This also suggests recording the volts and amps during normal driving
> > so that we have an idea of the proper real-life mix of current draws.
Victor
> > had a small amount of data on this for his first two cells.
> Yes, here:
> Raw unprocessed: http://www.metricmind.com/misc/acrx4a.gif
> plotted with excel: http://www.metricmind.com/misc/current_voltage.gif
> Victor
It looks like your max draw was about 150A, exactly 1.5C of the two 100AH
LiIon cells you were using in series with your high voltage optima pack
(>300V, if I recall correctly). I also recall that you live in an area with
substantial hills.
So it looks like a 1.5C limit might work well with a high voltage (>300V)
90AH pack of LiIon in a small car.
Thanks!
Gary
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> What is your charging regimen?
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
First two cycles I did constant current @ 27A till voltage reaches 4.25V
hold (CV) till current dropped to 1.0A (stopped at 1.2A on 1st cycle).
On the third cycle I tried increasing the CV portion to 4.30V. This didn't
seem to cause any difference though.
Graphs are at Gary's web site.
http://ev.whitecape.org/lion/
The glitches in the CC portion are me adjusting the power supply in cycle
#1, and me forgetting to plug in the sense lines in cycle #2. Cycle #3 data
would have looked great, but somehow it got deleted off the data acq. unit
before I could download it.
Chris Brune
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It was great having you over. You're giving me way to much credit
though. I have top claim stupidity on all counts. I have no idea what
the peak amperage is or your question about harm to the batts.
I have to admit that when I get home I just plug it in. I don't what
goes on until I unplug it the next day and I drive away : )
Paul Gooch may be able to answer these questions though. He built the
VW. BTW Paul. I'm still loving it!
I have to thank Mike Brandon for my first EV grin. While I was tickled
pink at the sensation of rolling around his little end of town in his
Electric Rabbit.
In all my excitement of the moment there were a couple things I wanted
to look at but forgot.
Mike, in order to put some meaning to real numbers. What is the peak
amperage on the emeter when you take off from a complete stop. How many
peak amps can you safely pull from the batteries without doing them
harm.
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At 09:17 PM 6/2/2003 -0700, Chris Brune wrote:
>I concur with Lee. I have not much capacity change in the three
cycles
>that
>I have completed.
>Cycle #1 71.3Ahr
>Cycle #2 72.6Ahr
>Cycle #3 72.7Ahr
>I am only discharging to 3.00V @ 27A. So my data might be different
than
>Lee's.
John Lussmeyer wrote:
> What is your charging regimen?
The first three cycles were pretty much the straight ThunderSky
recommendation:
charge at .3C (27A) and then CV at 4.3 until 1% of capacity current
(0.9A).
discharge at .3C until 3V.
We probably would get a few more AH if we discharged down to 2.75.
This seems consistent with the thundersky graph 2 and Lee's results.
Hopefully we would also have a total AH closer to 90AH.
It's possible that you might not normally want to go all the way to 0%
SOC, if that is at 2.75V. They say to never go below 2.6V (but if they
happen to self-discharge to that level, just charge them up). (Perhaps the
first 10% should be done more slowly?)
We also started with a more conservative 4.2V CV ceiling on the first
two cycles.
I will post data from Chris on my website directory at
http://ev.whitecape.org/lion as graphs in pdf files. (Very nicely done,
Chris!)
Gary
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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Ryan Fulcher wrote:
> I was wondering if there is a "good" way to use multiple
> DC-AC inverters to support larger loads?
Yes. You need to get ones that explicitly have provisions for operating
multiple units in parallel.
> Am I going to break something if I try to simply parallel
> the outputs?
Yes! Ones not meant to work in parallel will die a violent death!
> Would the inverters "naturally" sync their output
> sine waves, or blow each other to kindom come.
The latter!
Why not split your load into 400w size pieces? Each circuit has a
separate inverter.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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Maybe it has a reverse so it backs toward you to dump itself.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:57 PM
Subject: RE: Yet Another kind of EV
> I could have used one of those last summer when my Dad and I where putting
a
> concrete floor in the shed.
>
> I hope that the wheel has some kind of brake that can lock it up because
> without the bumper around the front of the wheel to dig into the ground
> dumping a load is going to be a challenge.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of John Lussmyer
>
> >> snip <<
>
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What kind of charger do you have?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "fred whitridge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 8:57 AM
Subject: NiZn charge algorithm
> Hello EVDL:
>
> Hopefuly my garage floor will soon be littered with a few less Evercel
MB80's than Victor's is with Thundersky LiOns. Evercel reports that their
container
> arrived from China, that they are inspecting and cycling batteries, and
that I may have my batteries this week.
>
> So, my question is: what charge algorithm should I load into my charger?
You can bet I'll ask the same question of Evercel but I'd like the real
world
> experiences of Mssrs. Rudman, Sheer, Smalley and any others with some
hands on NiZn experience.
>
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$45 sounds great, shipping doesnt:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2535331633
________________________________________________
PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart.
http://www.peoplepc.com
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Joe:
You asked what sort of charger I have.....I have a Brusa on the way from
Victor, NLG511TA. There may be a Manzanita PFC in my future however. I
like the sound of DC powering them and can think of some uses.
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So basically put tubing in the "floor" of the battery compartment just
like the radiant heating system I'm working on for my house.
However, in reading about radiant heating, everything I've seen says
that it doesn't work to run cold water through the tubing in the floor
to cool the house. How well will the heat inside the battery get
transferred to the liquid in the tubes underneath?
Joe's thought of surrounding the batteries with a liquid sounds much
more effective, but, umm, messy. To keep the interior batteries equally
cooled, perhaps could sub divide the box into several compartments each
with its own fluid pump.
fred whitridge wrote:
> I started with routing a channel for 1/4" I.D. Norprene tubing into a
> piece of plywood that snugly fit the bottom of my rear battery box.
> That was a failure since the pump I have could only push 1 liter per
> minute thru the tubing. This from a pump that does 4gpm running
> unconstricted.
>
> The second attempt was much better and was inspired by Roger Stockton,
> a grid of 1/2" copper pipe. The whole grid is shown being leak tested
> in the pool with 20psi of air.....and voila no leaks.
>
> http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/norprene.JPG
> http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/no_bubbles2.JPG
>
Joe Smalley wrote:
> One idea that was tossed around it to use flooded battery boxes where
> a cooling fluid bathes the sides and bottom of the batteries in a
> continuous flow. If the velocity is fast enough, the difference in
> temperature between the batteries is minimized. The cooling fluid
> could be either a liquid or a gas. The trick is to control the flow
> and temperature gradients to get a constant battery temperature.
>
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
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