EV Digest 4017
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) LED output
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Extra parts
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Those amazing regs.
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: LED Head Lights?
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: U of W project, was Venturi Fetish
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: U of W project, was Venturi Fetish
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: U of W project, was Venturi Fetish
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: U of W project, blueprinting drag race motors
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: U of W project, was Venturi Fetish
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: [Fwd: EV Shop]
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Venturi Fetish
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Saving the environment
by spidercats <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: wire cutting machine (OT)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Saving the environment
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Saving the environment
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: LED output
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: LED output
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Thermal Runaway, Conditioning Charge (was: The Amazing Little
Hawkers.)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) incandescents vs LED, efficency is relative measurement
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) HID on EV
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Extra Parts, tid bit for 300zx converters
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) 300zx adaptor plate
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: 300zx adaptor plate
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: incandescents vs LED, efficency is relative measurement
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Luxeon's document on retrofitting [http://www.luxeon.com/pdfs/AS13.PDF] states
"18 watts of Luxeon displace 135 watts of incandescent" - the little Ikea 11
watt CFs I use around the house list 600 lumens replacing a 60 watt
incandescent (but would you ever use one as a headlight?!)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> I have begun my work on fitting the warp 9 into the 300zx.
>> On the transmission mount there is a bar with 2 5lb weights on the rear
>> mount.
Sorry, didn't see this go by the first time. Those weights tune out a
vibration resonance in the drivetrain. You can safely remove them with an
electric motor drive.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Big question for you Rich:
Will your regs work the same if they are located 15 feet from the
battery, connected by 16 gauge wires and a fuse?
How about 20 gauge? 10 gauge? Can they work if you share a wire between
two batteries?
That's going to be the big question for me: If a reg can work that way
I'll cave and place an order for 50 in the spring. I'll hook them up to
a distribution port on the front of my pack and stick em in a box under
the hood. But the voltage drop over the wires and having 51 or 100 wires
and relays is the key.
That's what I hope to test on the E20 this winter.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree totally BUT stoplight SHOULD definately be LED based, EV or not.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 2:57 AM
Subject: RE: LED Head Lights?
> On 9 Jan 2005 at 17:48, Markus L wrote:
>
> > Luxeon Power Light Sources emit up to 325 lumens of white light, as
> > much as 790 lumens of red light ...
>
> An $8 H4 halogen lamp emits 900 lumens on low beam, and 1500 lumens on
high
> beam (and that's barely enough for these middle-aged eyes ;-).
>
> You might think that the halogen lamp is drastically less efficient.
> Certainly it may not be as efficient as an LED, but before making any
> assumptions you might want to check the LED's specs. Most of the white
LEDs
> I've seen have been, surprisingly, only slightly more efficient than an
> incandescent lamp.
>
> The reason LEDs perform so well in battery flashlights is that they let
the
> battery go flat gracefully. Unlike incandescents, they don't draw ^more^
> current as the battery voltage and their operating temperature decline.
> That, and the fact that most of them really don't put out very much light
> and so are very frugal with the battery's energy.
>
> I think that fitting LED taillights or even LED headlights to an EV would
be
> cool, but honestly, it's a trivial energy savings. I may do it someday,
but
> it's ^way^ down the priorities list.
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal.
>
> -- Emma Goldman
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like that 912 is becoming a great car!
Just curious what motivated you to use 2 motors and a tranny? (More
work and $$, but sounds like a good choice to me!) Why not just use
Otmar's hairball interface to decide when to switch the motors? If
you are looking to save some complexity and money, I'd vote for
hooking them up in parallel -- you have gears for lower speeds, and
can adjust the controller current limit to adjust max torque and
power.
The stock clutch will certainly slip unless you turn the current way
down. Kennedy Engineering Products makes a nice pressure plate
that'll hold 470 ft-lbs of torque with the stock disk, is 1/2 the
weight, and about $350. I'm not sure how well the stock clutch pedal
and mechanisms will take 3x the force.
How did you arrange 22 orbitals? Are all at floor level?
--- Steve Clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What if you have 2 8" 2k zilla but not all the contactors , would
> you hook
> them in series or parallel ?
> The Porsche 912 has a working tranny with stock clutch and 22
> orbital 's ,
> for starters and to play it safe I'll use series and a light foot ,
=====
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd suggest doing a google on "V8" and "Fiero". Dropping a Northstar
V8 into a Fiero has been done a few times. The tranny is alledgedly
up to a V8 level of torque if you have the right Fiero tranny, and
don't dump the clutch.
Twin 8's can provide tranny breaking torque, so you'd probably want
to go with a single 11. It'll be an easier install, and with gears
still plenty fast.
What batteries are being used? What are the goals for the car?
I used to have a Fiero, and would have liked to convert it to
electric power if it had even a token back seat. There are some very
good things going for the car: Surprisingly good aero, one of the
safest cars ever built (for the weight), and a real frame that is
strong. While not a lightweight, not too bad at as light as 2350 lbs
stock. The gas tank was in the huge tunnel between the seats, that
would be a great spot to put a few batteries right in the middle of
the car.
> > Stephan from the U of W project said: "Well the infernal
> combustion engine
> > will be out of the Fiero tomorrow and we plan to put in either
> one Warp
> 11"
> > motor or two Warp 8's any recommendations? The main thing we are
> shooting
> > for is a low zero to sixty time but we are not simply making a
> dragster."
=====
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Answering myself here. I saw the web page
<http://students.washington.edu/hrl> and see that Lions are planned.
You'll be hard pressed to afford the kind of Lions, or enough Lions,
that have enough power to justify twin 8's.
--- David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'd suggest doing a google on "V8" and "Fiero". Dropping a
> Northstar
> V8 into a Fiero has been done a few times. The tranny is alledgedly
> up to a V8 level of torque if you have the right Fiero tranny, and
> don't dump the clutch.
>
> Twin 8's can provide tranny breaking torque, so you'd probably want
> to go with a single 11. It'll be an easier install, and with gears
> still plenty fast.
>
> What batteries are being used? What are the goals for the car?
>
> I used to have a Fiero, and would have liked to convert it to
> electric power if it had even a token back seat. There are some
> very
> good things going for the car: Surprisingly good aero, one of the
> safest cars ever built (for the weight), and a real frame that is
> strong. While not a lightweight, not too bad at as light as 2350
> lbs
> stock. The gas tank was in the huge tunnel between the seats, that
> would be a great spot to put a few batteries right in the middle of
> the car.
=====
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Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would ask Dennis Berube. No electric vehicle has gotten down the 1/4
mile in less time than his single motor Current Eliminator. I would also
ask Bill Dube'. No electric vehicle has gone faster at the end of the 1/4
mile than his twin motor KillaCycle. Who is right? Hard to say! In the
past year, Bill Dube' has also listed other examples of record setting
single and multiple motor setups. But I like the idea of series-parallel
using the zilla. Basic physics tells you that two smaller motors can have
less rotational inertia than one larger motor (there are other things to
keep in mind for the comparison, but you get the idea...).
For what it's worth, I bet no one has spent more time blueprinting an
electric motor than Dennis Berube. And I believe Bill Dube' has spent
almost no time blueprinting his dual motors (changing timing, painting the
insulation, breaking in the brushes). The above two are examples of
different approaches with record setting results.
- Steven Ciciora
> This is a no brainer. Two eights will be more efficient and produce more
> horsepower than a single eleven given the same batteries and comntroller.
> Ask me, ask John Wayland, ask Otmar Ebenhoech, ask Bob Schneeveis.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The question posed by Stephan was whether one eleven or two eights would be
better for 0 to 60 mph times. He didn't ask what would be easier to install,
what would be quicker to install and what would be cheaper to install. His
question was about performance and not about class credits. It is very quick
and easy to build a car as slow as "Goldie". From their site I don't get the
feeling that this is their intention. If you are going to stress the limits
you are going to break things. With an enormous budget this can be reduced a
great deal by purchasing the top of the line racing mechanical parts. Even
so, many of these are designed for ICE engines with much different torque
characteristics. Ask John Wayland about bent and broken things. I'm not the
only amphead that breaks things. Dennis Berube has also had his fair share
of breakage.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: U of W project, was Venturi Fetish
Ask ME
I am the advisor....
The twin 8s won't fit nose to tail
AS you know Rod... belts are not as tough as you wish them to be.
Ot's belts are... But it makes a tall package.
Even with a single motor the transaxle is in danger EVEN with a single 8.
Double motors is a simple recipe for instant transmission danage.
Double motors require the massive change over series parallel contactor.
That adds rather quickly to the cost and the complexity.
Single motor for now... Lets get it running and get the Kids thier Class
credits... since failure to complete this poject effect thier Grades.
Not just thier ET and MPH numbers.
Something you might not have alot of respect for Rod. But I am trying to
get
them to build a solid machine. With the least possible chance of breaking
stuff right away.
Something Team Suck Amps has a rather poor record on.
Oh yea We are keeping the transmission... Gears trump contactors and twin
motors.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: U of W project, was Venturi Fetish
Stephan from the U of W project said: "Well the infernal combustion
engine
will be out of the Fiero tomorrow and we plan to put in either one Warp
11"
motor or two Warp 8's any recommendations? The main thing we are shooting
for is a low zero to sixty time but we are not simply making a dragster."
This is a no brainer. Two eights will be more efficient and produce more
horsepower than a single eleven given the same batteries and comntroller.
Ask me, ask John Wayland, ask Otmar Ebenhoech, ask Bob Schneeveis.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
I have received this inquiry from someone not on the list.
With his permission I copy his email and hope someone can
reply to this gent. Perhaps, Rod will be the most qualufied
to answer, or Lee, but, anyone - welcome with suggestions.
Please respond directly to felixthemagiccat at gmail.com
Thanks,
Victor
==================================
Metric Mind,
In the year 2001 I became interested in electric vehicles. I was
living on the East cost .in North Carolina and looking for a small
pickup truck. I had thought about the idea of owning an electric
vehicle, but I knew nothing at all of them. So I searched the
Internet to find information about ev. That is when I discovered the
Metric Mind. I looked over and over the Honda conversion, completely
amazed every time and I still am. I started to think about
conversion, then I thought of building a kit car with an electric
motor. But both my funds and knowledge were and are still limited. I
ended up purchasing a 1997 Mazda B2300 with an internal combustion
engine. My dreams for an ev faded away.
In 2004 I traded in the Mazda for a gas guzzling v8 4wd 2001 Toyota
Tundra. The reason: to impress chicks, to have 4wd, and feel macho,
it is a very nice vehicle. But deep down I want an economic, and
environmentally considerate transport. I would like to have converted
the Mazda. I couldn't afford to convert the Mazda and get the Toyota,
so I chose the Toyota. Primarily based on my limited knowledge of ev.
The problem is that I don't want to put a pile of money into
something when I do not know what I'm doing, and don't have anyone to
consult, or know of anywhere to go to for tools parts equipment or
anything else specifically for converting to an ev. I know less than
a novice, and I have no training or education.
I have started reading and scanning over books about the history of
ev, what they consist of, and how to convert to electric. I was
reading Build Your Own Electric Vehicle by Bob Brant, when I felt the
inspiration to find out all that I can about ev, so that I could open
an ev shop/dealership. I am now living in central Wisconsin. I live
in a place that is slow to adopt technology and intellectual change.
Where I am there are a lot of boat dealerships, atv dealerships,
hunting stores, new and used car dealerships, audio stereo shops, arts
and crafts specialties, office supply stores, Radio Shacks, bars, but
no places near me that offer electric vehicles or information or
conversions or parts.
I want to sell electric vehicles, cars, lawn mowers, atv's, boats; and
do conversions and sell components, tools, and any other equipment
relative to ev. This place is starvhing for productive intellectual
innovation. I want to bring the ev concept to where I live, here in
central Wisconsin. But I know next to nothing about electric
vehicles, or business. I am asking for direction, where should I
start, what should I learn, what should I do, who can I talk with
about this idea, what are the chances I could populate this area with
efficient environmentally considerate vehicles? Please give me some
suggestions.
Thank you,
Felix Gardner
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "James D Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: Venturi Fetish
"General Motor's EV1 was one of the first steps into
the zero-emissions arena, but it failed miserably
because of its impractical nature and limited range."
What the heck does he mean by "impractical nature"?
Maybe he's referencing how impractical the EV1s are
sitting in the desert crushed ;o)
I think it means it doesn't break down enough therefore limiting GM's
profits. Lawrence Rhodes...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I have been lurking for ages now waiting for something to come along
which would suit me. I did think of building my own EV Bike but it
seems there are a lot smarter people out there than I and I don't have
any of the skills or finance to make the mistakes I would need to in
order to build something from scratch.
So my questions, given the rather alarming predictions of global
meltdown and CO2, emissions, are;
Does anyone out there have knowledge of a long range motor scooter or
motor bike with a capability to cruise at about 40mph? The range would
need to be around 90miles to cover my commute although I might be able
to get away with 50 to 70 and a recharge at work or otherwise, does
anyone know of an EV builder in the UK that would be able to build such
a beast?
All the best
Matt G
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Damn found out. But it does have an EV use so mildly OT Yes I am getting a
broken welder to take the pinchroller out of. Thanks for the info everyone.
So everyone knows I am using a selenoid attached to some end nippers to cut
activated by a wheel with a nut that trips a switch with a long metal lever.
More nuts for less length. Haven't figured out the ratio yet.
....Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: wire cutting machine (OT)
I'm a few days behind, but I'm guessing this has more to do with bassoons
then with EVs ;-)
Using the feed mechanism from a welder strikes me as having good potential
if can find a decent cutting mechanism. There is probably a final trimming
after installation so exact length and cleanliness of initial cut won't
matter (?).
PS I used to play bassoon and once tried to build a automated paper clip
making machine as a college engineering project.
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Would only have to do a few thousand a month at most it could be very
slow 50 an hour at most and it doesn't have to be on while work is done.
This is a low volume affair but cutting thousands of pieces is still time
consuming on a monthly basis. ...
> ...Using solid brass 22gauge. Not coated. No stripping.
> ...Is there such a machine that will cut 22 gauge wire to different
> specified length from 3 to 6 inches? It doesn't have to be precision
> maybe with in .050 inch.
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I have been lurking for ages now waiting for something to come along which
would suit me. I did think of building my own EV Bike but it seems there
are a lot smarter people out there than I and I don't have any of the
skills or finance to make the mistakes I would need to in order to build
something from scratch.
So my questions, given the rather alarming predictions of global meltdown
and CO2, emissions, are;
Does anyone out there have knowledge of a long range motor scooter or motor
bike with a capability to cruise at about 40mph? The range would need to
be around 90miles to cover my commute although I might be able to get away
with 50 to 70 and a recharge at work or otherwise, does anyone know of an
EV builder in the UK that would be able to build such a beast?
All the best
Matt G
Welcome to the EVDL Matt!
Something like the Lynch motorcycle? These folks are in the UK. --
http://www.paulcompton.vispa.com/lynch1.htm
http://www.paulcompton.vispa.com/lynch2.htm
This electric bike group is based in the UK-
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/electricbikes/
This group is also a good source of info-
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/power-assist/
More motorcycles, bicycles, and scooters here-
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/
HTH!
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Does anyone out there have knowledge of a long range motor scooter or
> motor bike with a capability to cruise at about 40mph? The range would
> need to be around 90miles to cover my commute although I might be able
> to get away with 50 to 70 and a recharge at work or otherwise, does
> anyone know of an EV builder in the UK that would be able to build such
> a beast?
Cedric Lynch got that kind of performance from his fully-enclosed bike, but if
you were thinking of a more common-looking 2-wheeled vehicle, an
Oxygen/Lepton-e scooter (looks like a Vespa) can do 30 miles at 30 mph with a
hard-to-find NiZn pack, and it's $3K in the US ($2k for the lead version that
goes 20mi) -- you want to go twice as far, and speeding up from 30mph to 40mph
increases the energy needed well more than twice, so you'd need about 5 times
the energy in your pack. Making a streamliner that needs notably less power
looks easier than finding how to haul another 100kg of batteries!
Might want to peruse the info at evuk.co.uk or ukelectricvehicles.co.uk to see
what is available in your area, or see what local assistance you can get making
your own "Cedric-cycle".
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Luxeon's document on retrofitting... states "18 watts of Luxeon
> displace 135 watts of incandescent"
This is marketing-speak when they don't specify the basis of comparison.
Due to the drastic difference, I suspect they compared them based on
brightness, not light output.
> the little Ikea 11 watt CFs I use around the house list 600 lumens
> replacing a 60 watt incandescent (but would you ever use one as a
> headlight?!)
LUMENS are a measure of illumination -- the total quantity of light
delivered in all directions.
CANDELA are a measure of brightness -- how bright the light appears in
ONE direction only.
A car taillight has only one basic job -- to let you be seen at a
distance. Thus, brightness is the correct measure. The brighter it is,
the farther away it can be seen. LEDs are quite good at high brightness,
and so work fine for taillights.
A headlight has *two* jobs to do. First, it needs let you be seen at a
distance (like a taillight). LEDs can do this part. The second job is
that it must light up the road ahead, so you can see. This requires
illumination; lots of lumens or candlepower.
Fluorescents excel at illumination, but have low brightness. You could
use them for headlights to illuminate the road ahead, but their
brightness is low so you'd need a second light source with high
brightness so cars could better see you coming.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are also huge penaties in efficiency to pay when a black body
radiator (incandescent) with a filter is used compared to a narrowband
(single color LED) device. It is an unfair comparison on purpose.
Seth
On Jan 10, 2005, at 10:18 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Luxeon's document on retrofitting... states "18 watts of Luxeon
displace 135 watts of incandescent"
This is marketing-speak when they don't specify the basis of
comparison.
Due to the drastic difference, I suspect they compared them based on
brightness, not light output.
the little Ikea 11 watt CFs I use around the house list 600 lumens
replacing a 60 watt incandescent (but would you ever use one as a
headlight?!)
LUMENS are a measure of illumination -- the total quantity of light
delivered in all directions.
CANDELA are a measure of brightness -- how bright the light appears in
ONE direction only.
A car taillight has only one basic job -- to let you be seen at a
distance. Thus, brightness is the correct measure. The brighter it is,
the farther away it can be seen. LEDs are quite good at high
brightness,
and so work fine for taillights.
A headlight has *two* jobs to do. First, it needs let you be seen at a
distance (like a taillight). LEDs can do this part. The second job is
that it must light up the road ahead, so you can see. This requires
illumination; lots of lumens or candlepower.
Fluorescents excel at illumination, but have low brightness. You could
use them for headlights to illuminate the road ahead, but their
brightness is low so you'd need a second light source with high
brightness so cars could better see you coming.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Thermal runaway will NOT occur on a constant current
> charge. Can't happen. Impossible. No way. No chance. No how.
> Not in a million years.
>
> Thermal runaway ONLY can occur during a constant
> voltage charge. It happens if the charger voltage is set
> too high for the temperature of the battery.
I am generally a stickler for details, and I completely agree with you
here.
Don't slap my wrist, slap Dr. Olson's; I was just the messanger in this
case. ;^>
He made the statement that 4A is the highest recombination current that
an Optima can support without thermal runaway.
The data he presented at the 2004 'Advancements in Battery Charging,
Monitoring & Testing" symposium showed the cycle life on an Optima when
cycled to 100% DOD and recharged at 4A for 16hrs, and Dr. Olson
indentified the failure mechanism in this case to be separator
dryout/thermal runaway. So, it would appear that "thermal runaway" can
occur even when charging at a constant current, even though we may agree
that technically the current does not run away, and so we would not
ordinarily expect the temperature to do so.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Incandescents are 100% efficient, all the energy is converted to light
and heat. Some of the light is even in the visible spectrum.
If we take only visible light as our efficency comparison, then I think
LED's come out on top by a factor.
This relationship is not linear, at the small end, small incandescent
and LED's are a smaller difference
so at headlight levels, (the luxeon technology is there or D#$m close.)
is
(freq range * lumens/watt - watts of heat - watts outside visible
spectrum)/ power in << (freq range * lumens/watt -very small number
-very small number) / power in
or do the luxeon's need a big ole heatsink.
Heat; the perfect efficiency claims bullshit detector.
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--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Optima says a 4 amp 16 hour charge works. OK... isn't that
> 64 amp hours stuffed into a 50 amp hour battery? This sounds
> rather abusive...
Sure is. As I recall, Optima expects you to observe venting when you do
this.
The plots I've seen showed Optima's cycled to 100%DOD and recharged with
this regimen exhibited a life of a bit over 100 cycles before failing
due to thermal runaway/separator dryout. In comparison, the Optima
recommended algorithm (25A/14.7V to 1A/2A for 1hr) yielded about 220
cycles. The failure mechanism here was identified as paste degradation,
not water loss.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HID lights require 90 volt operating and a higher voltage spike to start
them, i think it would be a shame to go from pack down to 12V only to go
back up to 90 volt to operate, You know the focus of the "automotive
grade inverters" was not highest efficiency :-)
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--- Begin Message ---
I couldn't find the motor mount and it was gonna take 3 days and 110.00
to get one, then I also would need the $137 bar with weights, it has
some bushings with rubber in them in the hole where the 2 mounts go,
also 3-5 day wait.
Well, someone discovered the Chevy transmission mount bolts directly to
the trannsmission, the only difference is on the bottom; two 3/8-16
threaded holes on 1.5" centers instead of single 12mm(?) in the middle.
The overall height is the same as the two pieces so, I just drilled 2
new holes and tossed the bar with weights, The mount is $4.66 at
pep-boys and is readily available, if it turns out not to be strong
enough, then I will get an after market one like energy suspension.
Maybe there is a lesson here. If you are gonna make an adapter anyway,
choose something popular. I am making my motor adapter give me a small
block chevy pattern, that made it really easy to pick up a tilton triple
plate 5.5 clutch and flywheel for under $300.
However, the throwout bearing is not solved. yet.
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--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Roger you do realise that our chargers have a really nice
> voltage regulation control, that allows us to hold a voltage
> and taper the current.?
Yep.
> So the Regs work while the charger is holding a voltage,
> not a set current. The current can go all over the place, the
> voltage does not.
OK, as I suggested.
> The Regs Blink...They rarley stay locked on. They fire at
> 14.8 and open at 14.4. So...Steady state operations don't happen.
What happens at 20-80A when the first one fires before you hit the
voltage setpoint? You're running constant current, and I'd be really
surprised if dropping the charge current through that module from 80A to
77A is going to allow that reg to turn off.
When does the reg yank back on the charger output? Only when it locks
on, or whenever it is on, or only when it is in danger of melting down?
What does the charger do when it gets the signal? I think you mentioned
it taking a largish first step back, then smaller steps after that, but
that you really didn't want to get into the details.
Fair enough, I'm just looking for confirmation that if the cutback
signal is not used, or if the charger does not cut back quickly enough
or far enough, then the reg will lock on.
> So even with many amps flowing through the batteries... a
> Reg can still knock down the peak voltage across the battery
> by letting a 3 amp pluse pass around the battery.
> So our Regs are activley move charge from the higher
> voltaged batteries LONG before anything gets full locked on
> or goes steady state.
This seems a bit confusing to me: I don't see how a reg actively moves
charge anywhere. At best all it does is allow 3A of the charge current
pass around the protected battery; the charge current seen by the other
batteries in line remains the same.
Plus or minus any increase in charger output current due to operating in
constant voltage mode with the battery pack voltage momentarily
decreased by the reg action, however, as I pointed out before, this
increase cots both ways. It may be a benefit for any unbypassed
modules, since they get a bit higher charge rate than otherwise, but is
may be of detrimemt to bypassed modules since if the reg is already
bypassing its full 3A, the charge current through the bypassed module
will increase, and so will its terminal voltage (i.e. reducing the
effectiveness of the protection offered by the reg).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Since the reg load is a resistor (or used to be) it tells me that the
> battery is charging at 167ma if the reg bypassed 3 amps at 15 volts.
Only a measurement will tell... I assume that if Rich or Joe tell me the
reg is bypassing 3A, then it is doing so, and therefore, if the charger
is only supplying 3A, there is 0A left to charge the battery.
> This gets into the problem of a simple voltage cutback without a
> bypass ability. Once an Optima is full it can sit at 15 volts with as
> little as 200ma flowing through it. Trying to bring the rest of the
> pack to full at 200ma is going to take a LONG time. I hope the
> difference isn't 2ah (10 hours!)
Ah, but there are other ways to finish charging the pack that do not
result in venting, and achieve faster rates than 200mA. ;^>
But then, I have also always maintained that going reg-less would result
in a longer charge duration...
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mine is a 1987 non-turbo, I never drove it, never worked on it. never
seen one powered up so i don't know if it talks. Someone else took it
apart. It is a $300 puzzle.
but I like the seats and the body is in great shape.
It turns out the transmission is 5" furthur forward than I anticipated,
which means I will miss the stearing linkage, wahoo!
Adapter plate, I probably shouldn't call it that.
I sat down behind the motor with calipers and a gauge pin set and
measured over pins stuffed in the bolt holes and the boss on the crank.
I will convert it to cartesion coordinates for use on the mill when I
enter it in solidworks.
I am makeing a bulkhead that the transmission bolts to that will
mount to two ear plates on the pseudo frame rails, they will be large
and pop rivoted every inch to the unibody.
The bulkhead will have a 12" hole in it with bolt holes around it, i
will be able to install motor and clutch as a unit from the front.
I am acomplishing this by using a 2" thick bell shaped housing on
the motor before I mount my adapter, since the clutch and flywheel is
only 6-1/2 inch OD it will just drop right thru.
I hope to make my own front motor clamp from the remaining alum and
will come up front and rear to a flat spot to mount a plate of lexan to
mount the zilla.
Here is an interesting site www.z31.com they have all the z31 (84-89
z car) microfiche as pdfs :-)
maybe you can trace the wire there, i haven't gottne that far.
I am lucky I have access to a machine shop, actually a tool and die shop
for those that know the difference :-)
we have lathe,mill,grinder,edm,welder,etc. lots of fixtures and stuff.
Biggest concerns, How the heck am I gonna get 25 orbitals in here? and
how am I gonna get a throwout bearing for it.(38mm radius contact, looks
like I'll need a quartermaster unit)
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--- Begin Message ---
I believe that transmission interchanges with some american iron
(mustang or camaro, I don't recall) so you might look into that and get
dimensioned drawings. Or cobble something together better. Looks here
like some came with a Borg Warner T-5
http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/GearRatios.html
HTH
Seth
On Jan 10, 2005, at 9:48 PM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
Mine is a 1987 non-turbo, I never drove it, never worked on it. never
seen one powered up so i don't know if it talks. Someone else took it
apart. It is a $300 puzzle.
but I like the seats and the body is in great shape.
It turns out the transmission is 5" furthur forward than I
anticipated, which means I will miss the stearing linkage, wahoo!
Adapter plate, I probably shouldn't call it that.
I sat down behind the motor with calipers and a gauge pin set and
measured over pins stuffed in the bolt holes and the boss on the
crank.
I will convert it to cartesion coordinates for use on the mill when
I enter it in solidworks.
I am makeing a bulkhead that the transmission bolts to that will
mount to two ear plates on the pseudo frame rails, they will be large
and pop rivoted every inch to the unibody.
The bulkhead will have a 12" hole in it with bolt holes around it,
i will be able to install motor and clutch as a unit from the front.
I am acomplishing this by using a 2" thick bell shaped housing on
the motor before I mount my adapter, since the clutch and flywheel is
only 6-1/2 inch OD it will just drop right thru.
I hope to make my own front motor clamp from the remaining alum and
will come up front and rear to a flat spot to mount a plate of lexan
to mount the zilla.
Here is an interesting site www.z31.com they have all the z31
(84-89 z car) microfiche as pdfs :-)
maybe you can trace the wire there, i haven't gottne that far.
I am lucky I have access to a machine shop, actually a tool and die
shop for those that know the difference :-)
we have lathe,mill,grinder,edm,welder,etc. lots of fixtures and stuff.
Biggest concerns, How the heck am I gonna get 25 orbitals in here? and
how am I gonna get a throwout bearing for it.(38mm radius contact,
looks like I'll need a quartermaster unit)
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At this point I would like to see a DOT approved
replacement rather than heated discussion as to what
looks good enough. Rather than what is the
measurements or what is the comparison. If we could
have a good link to a DOT approved replacement that
would be super. However so far the only site I have
found talked about xenon as headlight and LED for Tail
and marker lights and the possible future of an LED
headlight. The luxeon technology looks good for some
applications however it does not suggest it is good
for automotive headlights yet.
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Incandescents are 100% efficient, all the energy is
> converted to light
> and heat. Some of the light is even in the visible
> spectrum.
>
> If we take only visible light as our efficency
> comparison, then I think
> LED's come out on top by a factor.
> This relationship is not linear, at the small end,
> small incandescent
> and LED's are a smaller difference
>
> so at headlight levels, (the luxeon technology is
> there or D#$m close.)
>
> is
> (freq range * lumens/watt - watts of heat - watts
> outside visible
> spectrum)/ power in << (freq range *
> lumens/watt -very small number
> -very small number) / power in
>
> or do the luxeon's need a big ole heatsink.
>
>
>
> Heat; the perfect efficiency claims bullshit
> detector.
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 -
> Release Date: 1/10/2005
>
>
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