EV Digest 4723
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Cheap, light taildragger (was "Re: Rear wheel recommendations")
by "Tim Stephenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Rear wheel recommendations
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) rewinding motors? (was "Re: voltage = speed? (newbie)")
by "Tim Stephenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Transport Denver to San Jose, California
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) FW: NEDRA Records for 2005
by "Grannes, Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Rear wheel recommendations
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: More motors -> More speed?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: electric motorcycle performance - Ninja Pics
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Deka Batteries
by "John Bisby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Deka Batteries
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Rear wheel recommendations
by "Ray Brooks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Rear wheel recommendations Re: Ray
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Motors and controllers
by "Jeff Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Was - the importance of tires. NOW : RR vs width
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: FW: NEDRA Records for 2005(confession)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: NEDRA race location change?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) wire and connector sizing
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: GBP (was: Lithium Battery Users?)
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: rewinding motors?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Electricity stored in batteries. The biggest dissapointment of
the modern world.
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: rewinding motors?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: DC-DC for lights only?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: wire and connector sizing
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: FW: NEDRA Records for 2005
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
My intent is to get out the door as cheaply as possible, no matter how odd
it might look.
Towards that end I am considering as light as possible so I can use fewer
batteries and a used forklift motor (or pair of golf-cart motors, perhaps).
Today's plan is to make a rollcage with a swing-arm driven rear wheel, with
VERY light body panels (and I was serious when I spoke of fabric and
varnish, though corrugated plastic is a possibility, too).
The front end *could* be engineered start-to-finish... but not with my skill
level. Most imporantly, however, I need to have a title for the "frame" to
present to our DMV in order to call this a real car (speed is important
considering the only roads that come out to my place). Thus my plan is to
start with wheels/steering/brakes/struts/etc. from just about anything
(still looking), re-title it in my name, and build up and back from there.
ANY comments are welcome (on or off list) - and again, with family finances,
the operative word here is "frugal". I have the utmost respect for our
racers (thanks for the research, guys!) and the folks who by God's grace
have the dough to "do it right" (bravo!) - but my station in life does not
permit Lithium batteries, new motors, or proper conversions.
-Tim (EVer Wannabe)
Thanks for the tip about standard vs superbeetle. I was originally thinking
of an Isetta-like front door, for which the lower profile of the superbeetle
suspension would be suited. However, safety and weight considerations
suggest a different plan now.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:59 PM
Subject: RE: Cheap, light taildragger (was "Re: Rear wheel recommendations")
> Tim Stephenson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > I was thinking (for example) of using the front end of a
> > SuperBeetle
>
> If you aren't going to drive the front wheels anyway, then I would use a
> standard Beetle rather than a SuperBeetle as the starting point. The
> SuperBeetle has a MacPherson strut front end that relies on the bodywork
> to locate and support the upper end of the struts, just like most other
> modern cars. If you plan to retain the SuperBeetle body, then go for
> it, but if your thought is to pop the body off the pan and roll your own
> vehicle using just the pan (or part of it), then I'd use a standard
> Beetls. The torsion bar front end on a standard Beetle is
> self-contained and doesn't rely on the bodywork at all. They are simple
> and robust and there is a wealth of aftermaket parts available if you
> want to lighten the front end, or raise or lower it, of increase its
> load bearing capability, etc.
>
> All that said, I would personally opt for the front end of a small FWD
> car like a Fiesta or Chevy Sprint/Metro. You still have the hassle of
> properly locating and supporting the struts if you ditch the stock body,
> but at least you now have the advantage of also getting a small,
> lightweight and efficient drivetrain included in the package.
>
> Sorry if I missed it, but I've been off the list for a while: is you
> intent to convert a 4-wheel car to a 3 wheel EV? (And if so, WHY?) Or,
> do you plan to build your own 3 wheel EV (i.e. ditch the original body
> and roll your own) based on parts of a donor car?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.21/96 - Release Date: 9/10/05
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stu or Jan wrote:
> Chris Doolen has converted his Buick and a Fox to trikes and he has driven
> them for several years.
That is exactly the link I was looking for the last time 3 wheel
vehicles were brought up on this list:
http://www.geocities.com/doolenthreewheelers/DoolenHome.html
I would love to race the 4 wheel version of that car against the 3
wheel version around a track and see who'd win. Then have the drivers
switch cars and do it again.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To save money, could I get a toasted motor and rewind it? I would assume
that if I want a DC Brush-type motor I should start with a DC Brush-type
motor, and that if it was series to start I should make it series to finish.
(Though shunt type is attractive for its regen capabilties when used with a
contactor controller.)
Is this possible? Are toasted motors available? Where? If you had enthusiasm
but your wife knew how to shoot, would you consider this as an option?
-Tim (EVer Wannabe)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:03 PM
Subject: Re: voltage = speed? (newbie)
> >> So why can´t I get the same speed with a low voltage+high amp system
> >> that I get with a high voltage + low amp?
>
> STEVE CLUNN wrote:
> > Well this could be done, would need a bigger motor, or one not
> > being used by anyone on the list :-)
>
> No, not quite. A motor can be rewound for almost any voltage. Basically,
> there is a certain amount of room for the windings. You can fill it with
> many turns of small wire for high voltage, or a few turns of heavy wire
> for low voltage.
>
> The motor works exactly the same regardless of the voltage/current you
> wind it for. Same torque, same speed, same horsepower, same efficiency
> -- all that matters is the *power* that goes in.
>
> There are a few limitations. First, you can't go below the voltage at
> which the winding becomes a single turn. This is only likely to be a
> limitation for very low voltages like 12v. Second, you can't go to such
> a high voltage that the wire size gets impractically small or the
> insulation needed gets impractically thick. This is only a problem over
> 1000 volts.
>
> Third, if there is a commutator, it needs to be correct for the basic
> voltage and current. The total area of the brushes limits the maximum
> current; the number of commutator bars and the spacing between them
> limits the voltage.
>
> The commutator is hard to change; so it sets a real-world limit to how
> far you can change the voltage of a motor. You can probably leave it
> as-is for a 2:1 change in voltage up/down; but would have to change it
> to get outside this range.
>
> But for a manufacturer, anything is possible. Low-voltage high-current
> motors have long commutators to get enough brush area. High-voltage
> low-current motors have large-diameter commutators with lots of bars to
> get the voltage between bars low enough.
>
> AC motors don't have commutator, so these limitations don't apply. Thus
> you can get anything from 1 volt to 10,000 volt AC motors!
> --
> If you would not be forgotten
> When your body's dead and rotten
> Then write of great deeds worth the reading
> Or do the great deeds worth repeating
> -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.21/96 - Release Date: 9/10/05
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> I may have need for a transport from Denver, CO to San Jose, CA
> these will be batteries for a total of over 1500 lb, so I don't
> want to run this load in a Prius ;-)
>
> Anybody travelling from CO to CA with some load capacity?
> CTS quote is $900
Post the above here and I'm sure you'll find someone who will transport them:
http://www.uship.com/
I think some people there make their living from hauling stuff for people.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks,
An interesting situation came up at Woodburn that caught the NEDRA board
off guard, and we've been discussing it at length the past several days.
First a bit of background. NEDRA categorizes its vehicles into classes
and voltage divisions. "Classes" are vehicle classes, and include
things like (DR=dragster, MC=Modified Conversion, etc.). "Divisions"
are voltage divisions, based on the nominal voltage of a battery pack.
The whole motivation for this was so that like vehicles competed with
like vehicles. A 336V motorcycle is in a different category (both class
and division) than a 96V street-legal conversion. This increased
"fairness" so that vehicles could race against similar vehicles.
Note that for classes, some vehicles could fall into multiple classes.
For example, a street-legal conversion could compete in either SC or MC
(modified conversion). The only difference is that MC is not
necessarily street-legal (though could be). Typically, we expect the MC
class to be a more competitive class (with quicker times) than the SC
class, since it is less restrictive and allows things like non-DOT
tires. However, a driver in a street-legal car can choose to compete in
the MC class if s/he so chooses, because it is a "harder" class.
Recall, too, that it has always been a rule that at NEDRA events, a
vehicle is registered in a specific class and division, and must race in
that division for the duration of the event. That is, if a street-legal
car is registered in MC, it must stay there all day, and cannot change
to SC. Nor can it be reconfigured to change voltage divisions. So,
essentially what this means is that at most one record can be set per
vehicle per event.
Now, what happened at Woodburn is that a racer wanted to register his
vehicle for a _higher_ voltage division than the car's nominal voltage.
This seemed at first glance to be a request similar to the
SC-running-in-MC scenario above, in which the racer essentially wanted
to put himself at a disadvantage by running in a harder category, only
this time it was a harder (higher) voltage division rather than a harder
vehicle class.
Though this makes sense in theory to allow this (if the racer wants to
race in a harder category, let him/her), the way the rules are currently
written prevents this from occurring. The rules currently do not allow
racers to race in higher voltage divisions. We have discussed this with
David Cloud, and he graciously agreed with this ruling. The posting on
the web site was a mistake and will be corrected.
However, the issue raises a valid question. Should the rules be changed
to allow racers to race in a higher voltage division? There are some
valid scenarios in which this occurs. If a racer registers for a given
division at the beginning of the day, say 132V (division E), and during
the course of the day, blows up a 12V battery. Now the car is at 120V
(division F). Since the car cannot be re-registered, there are two
options. One is that it's done racing for the day and can no longer set
any records. The other is that it can continue to run in division E,
but at the reduced voltage of 120V. This latter option seems
reasonable--it clearly is at a disadvantage against other division E
cars. However, this option is disallowed under the current rules.
Another similar scenario is one in which a car is 132V but develops a
bad battery on the way to the track. Someone is sent to get a
replacement. At the time of registration, the car sits at nominal 120V,
but the racer hopes that before the end of the day, the bad battery can
be replaced and it can run at its designed 132V. So, the racer
registers at 132V (division E) because the racer hopes to run at that
voltage. Can the racer run at 120V in the meantime? Again, not
according to the current rules.
So, the proposed rule change that the NEDRA board is considering, to
take effect beginning in 2006 is the following: vehicles may register
for any voltage division corresponding to their traction pack's nominal
voltage _or_higher_ (underline added for emphasis). There is still the
restriction that a vehicle must be registered for a particular class and
division at the beginning of the race, and that the vehicle stay in that
class/division for the duration of the event. Thus, each vehicle still
can only set at most one record per event.
We welcome feedback from the EV community. If appropriate, we can
discuss it on this list, or you can send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Either addressee will forward opinions to the full
board.
Dean Grannes
NEDRA board member
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul G.
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 7:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: NEDRA Records for 2005
On Sep 12, 2005, at 5:50 PM, Brian D.Hall wrote:
> MC/F 1999 Geo Metro 96 volts
> Driver: Steve Nash
> Owner:Dave Cloud 14.531 92.13 Woodburn Nationals
> September 5,2005
>
Why do you list him as holding the 120v class when he raced at 96v? Do
classes mean nothing?
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do they still sell those suicide front ends for Fab Model-T Buckets? Those
little crome tube axels look pretty light, and most had disk brakes.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"I live in the heavens. I reside on mountain tops. I am at constant vigil
over thee. I monitor thy righteous ways. Thy levels art mine to command.
When thou art in trouble, I will help thee through distorted times. When
thou art low, the touch of my hand shall raise thy spirit to the proper
level. When thou are too high, I shall terminate thee with a swift stroke of
my sword. When thy wires are frayed and broken, my angels shall use solder
and iron to heal thee. Thou art the circuit, I am the chosen one, I am the
TECH CONTROLLER!"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: Rear wheel recommendations
On 2005-09-15, Tim Stephenson wrote:
I am trying to design an inexpensive homebrew like the EWoody.
Assuming that's reasonable to consider, should I:
Get a donor rear-wheel drive front end, and fabricate a chain or belt
drive single wheel in the back, or
I can see the attraction of electric delta-trikes ... you get light
weight like a motorcycle but the damned thing doesn't fall over
and spill battery acid on you.
I'd go as light as possible: I have no idea where you get a light
two-wheeled front end, but any motorcycle breaker will be able to
sell you a swingarm, rear wheel, rear brake assembly which you can
just pivot off the back of your frame. Shaft drive bikes usually
have final reduction of about 3:1 so you'll need some kind of gearing
as well. Sidecar types will know how to get a car tyre onto a
motorcycle hub.
Sawing the back off a car doesn't make any sense to me at all.
-----sharks
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Husted wrote:
>What I'd like to know is what you would do with 450 lbs of motor??
After conversion, the car might weigh as much as 3,000 lbs. Hopefully
less though.. I'd like it to be as fast it could possibly be(and then
some!).
>Would you have the juice needed to get it to speed??
A 2K Zilla and a 348 volt pack. What more can I do? (This is where
the AC thoughts start creeping in.)
> Hopefully we will see what the 13 " Allis Chalmers inter-poled motor will do
> with >Purple phase, and wether it can get up to speed quickly enough.
That will be very telling. Will it be this year or next?
> As far as what I'm looking to do is take proven design types and repair them,
> >adding modifications to customer request, while at the same time keeping
> them >from the scrap yard and hopefully provide them to some good homes,
That will be excellent.
> Know that as time and money allow there will be many a tweeked motor being
> >sent to Rich's dyno for a little smoke and spin. I've spent 24 years moding
> under->volters and have only been doing this overvolt madness a few months.
> As >summer ends and I have less to-do items on my list I'll be able to have
> more time >to addressing some new projects.
Sounds great! Keep us posted.
Keep up the good work.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
Put up some text and pics of the vehicle on your site in the album called
Ninja EV. They can be viewed at _http://electricmotorcycles.net/modules/xcgal/_
(http://electricmotorcycles.net/modules/xcgal/) , look under the last updates
section. It is yellow.
I have been thinking about the cooling issue since we last spoke. The riders
right foot rests on the foot peg and against the brush end of the ADC. Any
cooling shroud that adds to the width on the right side of the motor would
prevent the riders foot from reaching the rear brake. Am I correct that this
is
this the end of the motor where the cooling fan/shroud would be mounted? If
so I'm still working on solving either the heat or the width issue.
I could be wrong about the size (diameter) of the cooling fins of an Etek
being larger than the 6.7" ADC. It looks larger. But I'll measure one and
report back.
Mike Bachand
DEVC
Colorado
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone on this list have experience with Deka Intimidator group 34 AGM
batteries.
Is their real life capacity comparable to Optima Y/T's?
John Bisby
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Bisby wrote:
> Does anyone on this list have experience with Deka Intimidator
This is the only vehicle I know of currently using those batteries:
http://www.coate.org/tom/escort/escort.html
This person was on this list at one time.
He said Deka contacted him and was going to do a story on him and his
car in their company newsletter. I never heard the results of that..
I really liked those batteries before the price went up. Now they are
the same price as Exide Orbitals.. :/
They used to be like $88 each and the Orbitals were $99 each, and the
Optimas as expensive as ever..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why not just leave it a 4 wheeled vehicle?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 6:56 PM
Subject: RE: Rear wheel recommendations
>
>
> Boy, did I start something when I used the words 'motorcycle type'.
>
> I WOULD NEVER USE A MOTORCYCLE TIRE ON AN AUTOMOBILE.
>
>
>
> Forgive me, but I have forgotten, what was the point of all this 3 wheel
> conversion, and why it the rear wheel going to be so far back?
>
> Back so far, keeps the trunk space for luggage or batteries. The gas tank
> etc, need not be changed. The car could be a hybrid.
>
>
>
> If you must have three wheels, why not just use a car or truck spindle,
> hub, brake, and all for your third wheel?
>
> It will probably go that way, but since a sprocket 'motorcycle style'
might
> be used, the 2 bearing fork swing arm may be the way to go.
>
> Mike, I hope that I cleared it up for you.
>
>
> stU
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stu or Jan wrote:
> Could it be done is the question?
Sure it can. But you'd have your EV on the road much sooner if you
just leave it with 4 wheels. Get it built and start driving it.
Winter is on the way...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In the world of EVs, we have the popular DC motor and just about any
controller can work with it in a range of voltages. A Warp can work with a
Curtis or a Zilla or anything in between. But, in the world of AC motors,
we have to have specialized controllers to go with the motors. I know this
is going to really show my lack of knowledge in the engineering of these two
animals, but here goes.
Why do AC motors have so much dependence upon the specific
controller/inverter that it is made for? I mean, I can take just about any
AC motor from a shop vac to my 5 hp 3 phase shop dust collector and as long
as I plug the shop vac into 110 and the dust collector into 220 3 phase,
they work and just run and run. If I had a DC motor I would expect it would
do just about the same. But my Brusa motors HAVE to be connected to a BRUSA
controller/inverter.
I like the smooth power band of the AC motors but I just don't really
understand why they are such a special animal compared to DC.
Jeff Wilson
USA(Ret)
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Est. yearly US cost to safeguard Persian Gulf oil supply: $50 billion Est.
2001 value of US crude oil imports from Persian Gulf: $19 billion
-- Harper's Index, April 2002
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philip Marino wrote:
> But, I know ( based on real data) that for bicycle tires, wider tires have
> lower rolling resistance than narrow tires ( at the same pressure).
That's not true concerning 20" tires at least. "Flatlanders" often
talk about a 2.10" wide tire being slow and a 1.75" tire being
extremely fast.
http://www.pedalbmx.com/forum/
Look how narrow those Tour de France tires are.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The currenteliminator did not run close to 336v when it set the 8.81 record.
So now what. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 9/15/05 4:42:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: NEDRA race location change?
Date: 9/15/05 4:42:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dave)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
I think that only happens if you are running an ICE engine.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"I live in the heavens. I reside on mountain tops. I am at constant vigil
over thee. I monitor thy righteous ways. Thy levels art mine to command.
When thou art in trouble, I will help thee through distorted times. When
thou art low, the touch of my hand shall raise thy spirit to the proper
level. When thou are too high, I shall terminate thee with a swift stroke of
my sword. When thy wires are frayed and broken, my angels shall use solder
and iron to heal thee. Thou art the circuit, I am the chosen one, I am the
TECH CONTROLLER!"
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: NEDRA race location change?
> Not a nedra member but I think the Big race each year should be in the
> middle
> of the country making it easier for travel.Denver is a great track where
> records would be easy to obtain due to the altitude.For the same setings
> as in
> Phoenix the current eliminator can be 6 mph quicker. Dennis
> Berube
> Just a lithum pack and 2 weeks away from a 7 second qt.mi.run(here in
> Phoenix)
> >>
I still have all the Denver time slips and phoenix time slips of that era.I
did set a new speed and et record at that event(runing 240 in the 336 volt
class).Gas,nitro and alki cars run slower in denver due to lack of oxygen and
Lack
of down force.When the pro circuit hits denver they can compensate with
overdriven blowers to some extent. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I originally thought that with my 25 orbital pack and a zilla 1K I would
use 2/0 cable for the battery side of things and 2 runs of 2/0 for the
motor side. At the moment the 2 runs of 2/0 seems imposible and a
waste of time.
The posts on the warp 9 are smaller than the 2/0 wire, this would make
them the fuse. they are short enought that no washers could be used if 2
lugs are used, these lugs would be at 90 degrees to each other to clear
themselfs and putting them back to back is out of the question because
one would hit the case.
The kilovac EV250 has really tiny bolts(1/4-28?) , the head of these
bolts would fit thru the 3/8 hole in a standard 2/0 lug. It has a nice
flat area so If I can find lugs for 2/0 cable with 1/4 holes and a
smaller width so they fit, i could see that working, but I can't find
these lugs.
The zilla has the largest area for contact, but a "tight pattern" which
I suppose is because of how close the bars needed to be interanally, but
it does kinda set the wire orientation.
Does a single run of 4/0 take less room and do they make crimp
connectors for 4/0 with 5/16 holes?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep, definitely a bad photo edit job.
(You'd think they would at least make the letters match the perspective angle
of the building)
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Osmo Sarin
Sent: Thursday, 15 September 2005 9:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: GBP (was: Lithium Battery Users?)
Don´t know anything about this GBP, but take a look at the picture of
the building in the "Company profile" page: I think the letters GBP
were added to the picture afterwards...
Osmo
15.9.2005 kello 12:34, Lawrie, Robin kirjoitti:
Another link to a lithium battery supplier:
>
> Http://www.gbp-battery.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tim - and all
At 09:26 PM 15/09/05 -0400, Tim wrote:
To save money, could I get a toasted motor and rewind it? I would assume
that if I want a DC Brush-type motor I should start with a DC Brush-type
motor,
Correct
and that if it was series to start I should make it series to finish.
Not necessarily - but how do you or I make the analysis of how many turns
to change a series into a shunt field? The motor shop will do as you ask -
but won't know how to analyse to make changes like that.
(Though shunt type is attractive for its regen capabilties when used with a
contactor controller.)
Regen on DC really needs interpole windings - gets more complex, and hard
to add.
Is this possible? Are toasted motors available? Where? If you had enthusiasm
but your wife knew how to shoot, would you consider this as an option?
If you can find them motors are out there that are burnt, wet, cracked,
siezed, abandoned... um, whate else?
Anyway, depending on *your* skills is what I'd reccommend, unless you are
going to pay Jim to improve a motor ending up with a total outlay maybe 3/4
the price of a new one. Better to find a motor that is essentially OK
electrically, needing bearings, brushes and commutator skimming that is
something that any competent mechanical person can do (taking the rotor to
a machine shop/lathe for the skimming, of course).
Getting a motor rewound may have an advantage of spreading out the $s into
smaller chunks - a couple of hundred here, a couple of hundred there....
My motor was very cheap, and very wet, but cleaned up A-OK, but I did spend
a couple of hundred at the motor shop.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark and Jim,
You are both right and both wrong...
What you want, even in this hot climate is to have the southern exposure shaded
during the hottest times of the year and then when it is 'cold' here, have the
sun heat up the facade or come in thru the windows. You can have as many
windows or as few windows as you want. But they need to be shaded during the
summer/hot time. This is very easily done by overhangs that are calculated so
that the angle of the sun hits them in the summer when the sun is high in the
sky and goes under them in the winter when the sun is low in the sky.
That is the concept of passive solar - to use the heat of the sun in the cold
times of the year to heat the house, and shade the house during the hot times
of the year. A very easy concept to implement.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 5:46 PM
Subject: RE: Electricity stored in batteries. The biggest dissapointment of the
modern world.
> Mark,
>
> It's all in your perspective..
>
> This is a cardinal sin when buying a house here in the Phoenix area. We
> want ours to face North and have as much shade on the Southern exposure as
> possible.
>
> >BTW, anytime you buy a house at least make sure the long windowed side is
> >facing south, this costs nothing and saves you a bunch as passive solar
> and
> >thermal active solar is very cost effective with short payback especially
> if
> >you are willing to do the work.
>
> Good luck on your Bomardier project. Most of our service streets are 40 and
> 45 Mph so a NEV can't cross the interstates that divide different parts of
> the city. We are pretty much stuck in our neighborhood with them, although
> I did see a guy last week running in 40 Mph traffic on a Quad.
>
> Jim - in the valley of the SUN
> '93 Dodge TEVan
> "Breathe Easy - It's Electric"
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:46:42 +1000, James Massey
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Not necessarily - but how do you or I make the analysis of how many turns
>to change a series into a shunt field? The motor shop will do as you ask -
>but won't know how to analyse to make changes like that.
That part is easy. Shoot to maintain the same number of amper-turns
(amps * turns) to maintain the same field strength. If the series
field has 5 turns and the motor generated the desired torque at 400
amps, then the field has 20,000 amper-turns. If you want to drop the
field current down to, say, 10 amps, then 20,000/10 = 2000 turns. You
still have to figure the ohmic value to make sure that many turns will
flow the amps and you have to figure the fill factor for the wire size
you choose to see if it will fit but the motor shop (and probably
online) will have tables. You can probably drop down a couple of wire
sizes from the table value since you're not running continuously and
you'll probably do field weakening for added speed.
This almost always ends up being a juggling act since the ideal turns
count and wire size usually won't fit. You usually end up picking the
largest wire gauge that will physically fit. That's where the motor
guy's experience comes in. Or if he's a member of EASA (most are),
they'll do the figuring for him/you.
>
>>(Though shunt type is attractive for its regen capabilties when used with a
>>contactor controller.)
>
>Regen on DC really needs interpole windings - gets more complex, and hard
>to add.
Nice but not necessary. If one does heavy regen then the brushes are
going to have to be set closer to neutral but that's about it.
>
>>Is this possible? Are toasted motors available? Where? If you had enthusiasm
>>but your wife knew how to shoot, would you consider this as an option?
>
>If you can find them motors are out there that are burnt, wet, cracked,
>siezed, abandoned... um, whate else?
problem is, the field is usually the last thing to fail in a series
motor.
>
>Anyway, depending on *your* skills is what I'd reccommend, unless you are
>going to pay Jim to improve a motor ending up with a total outlay maybe 3/4
>the price of a new one. Better to find a motor that is essentially OK
>electrically, needing bearings, brushes and commutator skimming that is
>something that any competent mechanical person can do (taking the rotor to
>a machine shop/lathe for the skimming, of course).
Yup. I'd rather spend the time finding a good motor in the boneyard
than trying to salvage a damaged one.
Funny how things run in parallel. I've been giving some serious
consideration over the last couple of weeks to converting a spare
Citicar motor to shunt to see if I can get the same performance using
two armature voltage steps and PWM field control.
A PIC processor going from a pot box to controlling a pair of
contactors and a 10 amp PWM field controller would be a yell of a lot
cheaper than the conventional high amp series controller and would
probably provide a wider speed range. The best of both worlds - the
cheapness of a contact controller and the smoothness of an electronic
one.
In the process I've given some thought to a hybrid approach - a set of
permanent magents inserted into the field to provide baseline field
and a shunt winding to add to the field for low speed/high torque
operation. A bipolar field controller could take it both ways - boost
the field down low and buck it for high speed operation.
This would provide the economy of operation of a perm mag motor and
the speed range of a series motor. Especially if the permag strength
is selected so that there is no field current required at the most
common speed point. Hmmmm.
My first thought is to simply mill some holes into the field shoes of
the motor and insert some NIB super magnets of the appropriate
strength. Hmmmm.
In the off-chance that nobody's ever thought of this enough to patent
it, consider this my public disclosure to prevent it from being
patented.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The lamp won't care, I was suggesting it's only a small step from being
a properly filtered DC/DC converter that can power other stuff.
The current limiter prematurely terminates the current pulse when the
current rises above a set limit. The lamp starts out as a low impedance
load so as soon as the pulse starts it will instantaneously exceed the
max and turn off the pulse maxing an average current near zero rather
than the output current being near the current limit.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
Depending on your chip it may only be a matter of adding an
appropriate inductor and a Schottky diode and you've got a
DC/DC converter.
You don't even need an inductor or diode. The lamp doesn't care.
The current limit cannot really be used to do a soft startup unless
an inductor is used. Otherwise the pulse width will end up near
zero and it won't start.
Sure it starts! Light dimmers do this, and they work.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sep 15, 2005, at 12:55 PM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
Does a single run of 4/0 take less room and do they make crimp
connectors for 4/0 with 5/16 holes?
Indeed they do: http://www.quickcable.com/12.html
Here's one source:
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=0715835
Another: http://www.evsource.com/tls_lugs.php
One more: http://www.evparts.com/shopping/index.php?id=720
(I love my local Fastenal store. If you've got one nearby and haven't
been inside, take a look.)
Are you sure the bolts on your motor are 5/16"? The ones on my 8" ADC
are 3/8", which I discovered after buying the 5/16" lugs. Or are you
talking about the other end of the cable?
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dean,
I think vehicles should be allowed to register in a higher voltage
division than the actual pack nominal. This is what helps drive
innovation. The scenerios you mention are possible but not likely
the norm. More likely is someone that has a new idea they want to
test and they already know they beat the snot out of their (nominal)
voltage division peers.
Ralph
Grannes, Dean writes:
>
> Folks,
>
> An interesting situation came up at Woodburn that caught the NEDRA board
> off guard, and we've been discussing it at length the past several days.
>
> First a bit of background. NEDRA categorizes its vehicles into classes
> and voltage divisions. "Classes" are vehicle classes, and include
> things like (DR=dragster, MC=Modified Conversion, etc.). "Divisions"
> are voltage divisions, based on the nominal voltage of a battery pack.
> The whole motivation for this was so that like vehicles competed with
> like vehicles. A 336V motorcycle is in a different category (both class
> and division) than a 96V street-legal conversion. This increased
> "fairness" so that vehicles could race against similar vehicles.
>
> Note that for classes, some vehicles could fall into multiple classes.
> For example, a street-legal conversion could compete in either SC or MC
> (modified conversion). The only difference is that MC is not
> necessarily street-legal (though could be). Typically, we expect the MC
> class to be a more competitive class (with quicker times) than the SC
> class, since it is less restrictive and allows things like non-DOT
> tires. However, a driver in a street-legal car can choose to compete in
> the MC class if s/he so chooses, because it is a "harder" class.
>
> Recall, too, that it has always been a rule that at NEDRA events, a
> vehicle is registered in a specific class and division, and must race in
> that division for the duration of the event. That is, if a street-legal
> car is registered in MC, it must stay there all day, and cannot change
> to SC. Nor can it be reconfigured to change voltage divisions. So,
> essentially what this means is that at most one record can be set per
> vehicle per event.
>
> Now, what happened at Woodburn is that a racer wanted to register his
> vehicle for a _higher_ voltage division than the car's nominal voltage.
> This seemed at first glance to be a request similar to the
> SC-running-in-MC scenario above, in which the racer essentially wanted
> to put himself at a disadvantage by running in a harder category, only
> this time it was a harder (higher) voltage division rather than a harder
> vehicle class.
>
> Though this makes sense in theory to allow this (if the racer wants to
> race in a harder category, let him/her), the way the rules are currently
> written prevents this from occurring. The rules currently do not allow
> racers to race in higher voltage divisions. We have discussed this with
> David Cloud, and he graciously agreed with this ruling. The posting on
> the web site was a mistake and will be corrected.
>
> However, the issue raises a valid question. Should the rules be changed
> to allow racers to race in a higher voltage division? There are some
> valid scenarios in which this occurs. If a racer registers for a given
> division at the beginning of the day, say 132V (division E), and during
> the course of the day, blows up a 12V battery. Now the car is at 120V
> (division F). Since the car cannot be re-registered, there are two
> options. One is that it's done racing for the day and can no longer set
> any records. The other is that it can continue to run in division E,
> but at the reduced voltage of 120V. This latter option seems
> reasonable--it clearly is at a disadvantage against other division E
> cars. However, this option is disallowed under the current rules.
> Another similar scenario is one in which a car is 132V but develops a
> bad battery on the way to the track. Someone is sent to get a
> replacement. At the time of registration, the car sits at nominal 120V,
> but the racer hopes that before the end of the day, the bad battery can
> be replaced and it can run at its designed 132V. So, the racer
> registers at 132V (division E) because the racer hopes to run at that
> voltage. Can the racer run at 120V in the meantime? Again, not
> according to the current rules.
>
> So, the proposed rule change that the NEDRA board is considering, to
> take effect beginning in 2006 is the following: vehicles may register
> for any voltage division corresponding to their traction pack's nominal
> voltage _or_higher_ (underline added for emphasis). There is still the
> restriction that a vehicle must be registered for a particular class and
> division at the beginning of the race, and that the vehicle stay in that
> class/division for the duration of the event. Thus, each vehicle still
> can only set at most one record per event.
>
> We welcome feedback from the EV community. If appropriate, we can
> discuss it on this list, or you can send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] Either addressee will forward opinions to the full
> board.
>
> Dean Grannes
> NEDRA board member
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Paul G.
> Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 7:23 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: NEDRA Records for 2005
>
>
> On Sep 12, 2005, at 5:50 PM, Brian D.Hall wrote:
>
> > MC/F 1999 Geo Metro 96 volts
> > Driver: Steve Nash
> > Owner:Dave Cloud 14.531 92.13 Woodburn Nationals
> > September 5,2005
> >
>
> Why do you list him as holding the 120v class when he raced at 96v? Do
> classes mean nothing?
>
> Paul
>
--- End Message ---
