EV Digest 4906
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Range Extending
by Chris Martens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: unveiling the Gamera Nine
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: very weak demand for Toyota and Honda EVs?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Battery Charging
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: very weak demand for Toyota and Honda EVs?
by "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: very weak demand for Toyota and Honda EVs?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: very weak demand for Toyota and Honda EVs?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery Beach Burnout (FL Race) Update
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: R/C Electric Mower
by Jon Glauser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) projected range on nicads
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: very weak demand for Toyota and Honda EVs?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) RE: A123Systems li-ion technology
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Seres Motor Field
by England Nathan-r25543 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Range extending
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: CAD models for common EV components.
by "Mueller, Craig M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) CalCars Visit to Seattle a Resounding Success
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Motor pics/steel comm?
by Jon Glauser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: projected range on nicads
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Hawkers in the Hood
by Mark Dodrill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Range extending
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: projected range on nicads
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Hawkers in the Hood
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: very weak demand for Toyota and Honda EVs?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: very weak demand for Toyota and Honda EVs?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) C5 on eBay
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
26) Robin Reliant move over.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Robin Reliant move over.
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
That sounds similar to what I'm doing, putting together a hybrid car that runs
on
gasoline, but has solar panels as well. It's different then current production
hybrids in that it has much less power (about 10-15 HP for a Geo Metro).
Secondly, it's a series hybrid with a set of Optima batteries as a buffer. Only
the electric motor powers the wheels, the gas motor powers a generator.
This has the advantage of running the gas motor at full throttle when it is
running, greatly increasing it's efficiency. When you couple the motor to the
wheels, it's necessary to throttle it, and run it at less then optimal speeds.
It also has much less weight in batteries then a conventional electric,
resulting
in less KW used per mile. I figure whatever can be stored from the solar and an
occasional house charge can't hurt either.
Chris
--- "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mark Wrote:
>
> > Try CalCars.org 's "Prius+" project.
> >
> > http://www.calcars.org/priusplus.html
>
> Yeah, that's what got me started thinking... but I'm talking about a
> practical conversion here, not a $$$$$ research project.
> And that is not my point, really. See, that is a INFINITE range hybrid:
>
> "On the highway, it runs just like any other Prius, with the gasoline
> engine doing most of the work -- and the extra batteries kicking in to
> improve performance at ALL speeds."
>
> The gas engine is much too big, and the EV system is too small (won't
> take you on the freeway by itself). It's still a ICE-heavy hybrid
> design. I'm talking about the flip side of the same idea, a
> electric-heavy FINITE range hybrid design. When you accept a fixed range
> (100-200 or so miles) regardless of how much gas you put it in, I think
> you might be able to do this for a relatively affordable amount.
>
> This is a (potential) idea for my street EV conversion of a previously
> race converted 68 Datsun Roadster 2000. Very light, not a lot of room
> for batteries, small frontal area (kinda between a midget and a sprite),
> but BIG fully boxed reinforced frame rails with lots-o-cross bracing.
>
> --
>
> Stefan T. Peters
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jay and all,
I posted the Gadget flywheel adaptor 2.0 on my new
website. It might just work for you with no welding
required. I like this method ALOT. the whole process
to make the adaptor took less than 2 hours. (machine
shop required) check it out at
leftcoastconversions.com
Gadget
> > Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:06:48 -0500
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Unveiling the Gamera Nine
> To: [email protected]
>
> That's right, listers and lurkers, you heard it
> first from the Maker. Jim Husted's latest creation
> has left the nest. This super-shortened 9" with a
> tailshaft has both adjustable brush rigging and
> coils plumbed for series-parallel shifting. More
> info on the motor and it's funny name are online at
> www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com
> Cheers,
> Jay Donnaway
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: very weak demand for Toyota and Honda EVs?
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 11:20:54 -0800
Having said that, Solectrias only shot was EVs. This was the only market
that
they were in, so if they were unsuccessful making and selling EVs, then
they
had nothing else.
That's why I would tend to give more credence to any statements Solectria
would make on this topic.
Or am I way off base? :)
Thanks!
Well there is know way to know for sure, and discussion of this particular
subject on this list can easily turn into a flame war. I personally believe
the automakers when they say that there is no market. Regardless of how
much people bad mouth them I still believe their primary objective is to
make money. If there was big money in making EVs they would do it. As far
as I can tell no one has yet been able to make money building EVs, on either
a small or large scale. This is true across the board so far. America's
big three, Japan's forward thinking, Asia's low cost, and small ingenuity
based automakers have all put in at least a token effort and given up on
making money building and selling battery electric vehicles or flat out went
bankrupt.
The only brand new car that I have ever purchased is my 2001 Honda Insight.
I would not be willing to pay the same $19K for the exact same car as a BEV
with 50 mile range. So for me, their research is right on the mark. The
higher the range the closer I would come to doing the deal, but not if the
batteries were a pain to take care of and needed to be replaced several
times over the life of the car, and I am an electric vehicle fan.
There is often a conspiracy bent offered up on this list as to why electric
cars are not being produced. I believe the only conspiriacies that
corporations are willing to be involved in are the ones that will make them
money. If automakers believed electrics could make them money, they would be
conspiring like crazy to ditch gas and make electrics. Perhaps there is a
grand plan that we haven't figured out yet. Perhaps companies like GM are
pushing gas guzzling SUVs to purposely run the world out of oil supplies.
Once all the oil is gone instead of charging $30-40K for their newest
products they can charge $80-100K to sell us electrics with the same
functionality. The higher the price point they start at the more potential
profit they can sneak in...
I believe that the real reason that no one makes electric cars is because
batteries suck! Unless something changes, battery powered vehicles will
either have to compromise on features, or be ridiculously expensive.
How can you compare the cost and hassle of a battery pack to that of a gas
tank. They both serve the same function. Unless the rest of the vehicle
somehow compensates for the compromises the battery pack imposes, making
BEVs will continue to be impracticle to manufacture and sell. They sure are
fun to build and play with though:-)
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Guess I should stop doing that, then, charging in an enclosed garage for 30
years. Maybe I'm lucky since my vehicles don't use a truckload of
batteries, max was a 20 battery vehicle and min was a 9 battery vehicle. I
have a 24x24 84' lumber garage I built from their plans. There is a ceiling
fan vent but it isn't turned on unless I'm painting (which I don't do while
charging :-) - Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 1:20 AM
Subject: Re: Battery Charging
> If you EV does not have a totally enclose battery ventilation and all arc
or spark producing devices as contactors and relays are not isolated from
any battery venting, it best to charge the vehicle outside with all the
enclosure doors open.
>
> But you still could have the top of your vehicle blown out like I did,
(the lexon glass blew out in one piece), taking out 10 batteries out back in
1985. This was cause by the turning off the battery charger switch which was
a arcing device.
>
> Since then, I install the batteries in a totally enclose epoxy coated
fiberglass enclosure that has a negative pressure, by using a explosive
proof exhaust fan that directs the exhaust down and out in a 1/4 thick acid
proof pipe like a engine exhaust pipe. If I charging in a building, I can
connect a hose to this exhaust port to a exterior wall port of the building.
>
> Clean filter air comes in a acid proof pipe which is 6 feet to the front
of the rear exhaust.
>
> The battery charger, contactors, relays, circuit breakers and any arc
producing devices are also in a separate totally enclosure that is under
pressure, so that its keeps out any battery fumes.
>
> The exhaust fan and pressure fans, have a pressure/vacuum sensor switch,
so if any of the fans fail, the charger power is disconnected. There is a
back up fan that stays on to purge any remaining fumes after the battery
charger shuts down.
>
> Also, before charging the batteries, the fans must come on first for a 30
second purge of any battery fumes. This then activates the pressure/vacuum
fan sensor, which turns on a AC magnetic contactor providing power to the
battery charger.
>
> Before the battery charger is turn on, a battery isolation DC contactor
connects the battery charger DC lines to the battery. The battery charger
is then turn on.
>
> In a EV, you are compacting a large amount of batteries in a small space.
In a industrial battery and maintenance rooms, you could also have a large
number of batteries. In these battery rooms, the whole ceiling is one big
exhaust fan hood with two large prop driven up lift fans. The walls are
also cover with double layer of epoxy cover aluminum ductwork that goes all
the way to the floor. There is also outlets opening at the base of the work
benches.
>
> All lighting, switches, receptacles, and battery charger receptacles are
all explosion proof, Class I Division I devices. Battery chargers are not
place in the same room that the batteries are in. They are in equipment
cabinets in a separated room.
>
> If your EV is in a enclosed garage without any ventilation and you smell
battery fumes, DO NOT TURN ON OR OFF ANY LIGHT SWITCHES OR OPEN THE GARAGE
DOOR WITH THE ELECTRIC OPERATOR! Treat it just like a natural gas leak.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Phil Marino<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 9:37 PM
> Subject: Re: Battery Charging
>
>
>
> >Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 19:56:07 -0800
> >
> >I don't think so, Bill - others may differ, but the gas produced by
> >charging
> >is not very flammable or explosive, and is in such small quantities
that is
> >is not a potential problem.
> >
>
> No - flooded lead acid batteries give off hydrogen ( and oxygen) gas
when
> charging, particularly when equalizing. This is not a matter of
personal
> opinion.
>
> Hydrogen IS very flammable and explosive ( if constrained when ignited)
>
>
> . Check out this site to see what can happen when hydrogen from
charging
> batteries ignites:
>
>
http://www.detrick.army.mil/bulletin/safety/work/batteryexplosion.cfm<http://www.detrick.army.mil/bulletin/safety/work/batteryexplosion.cfm>
>
>
> PLEASE, everyone. When posting about safety-related issues, be sure you
> know that your claims are really true. Don't guess.
>
> Phil
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's
FREE!
>
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/<http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I partially agree with you, Damon.
Damon> I personally believe
the automakers when they say that there is no market. Regardless of how
much people bad mouth them I still believe their primary objective is to
make money. If there was big money in making EVs they would do it.
I agree, there is NOT big money in making EVs. Living in Denver, I never heard
a peep from the automakers, large or small about EV's for sale. There are
quite a few conversions running around here. I think the targeted market,
California, was much too small. There are better areas around the country
suited for EV's and other areas with a higher percentage of people who are
green minded.
The only brand new car that I have ever purchased is my 2001 Honda Insight.
I would not be willing to pay the same $19K for the exact same car as a BEV
with 50 mile range. So for me, their research is right on the mark. The
higher the range the closer I would come to doing the deal, but not if the
batteries were a pain to take care of and needed to be replaced several
times over the life of the car, and I am an electric vehicle fan.
Damon> Perhaps there is a
grand plan that we haven't figured out yet. Perhaps companies like GM are
pushing gas guzzling SUVs to purposely run the world out of oil supplies. Once
all the oil is gone instead of charging $30-40K for their newest
products they can charge $80-100K to sell us electrics with the same
functionality. The higher the price point they start at the more potential
profit they can sneak in...
Interesting theory. Do you think they are intelligent enough to think up and
implement such a plan?
Damon>I believe that the real reason that no one makes electric cars is because
batteries suck!
I totally agree with you there. Electric cars will not be the norm until
battery technology is better. That doesn't mean we should quit trying.
Damon> How can you compare the cost and hassle of a battery pack to that of a
gas
tank. They both serve the same function.
I think you must include the cost of Oil, oil changes, and cost to the
environment of the dirty oil, recycling costs of it. Also the costs of
increased health costs due to the pollution from the combustion. Some day,
hopefully, we will have less of this pollution. Your forgetting the oil
subsidies the government pays to keep the gas costs down to the consumers.
These come from our taxes.
I think the biggest problem EV's face is that most of the people in our country
and others are more concerned with the immediate (short term), costs and not
the long term and environmental costs. My wife, an accountant, is one of those
:(
Steve
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Damon> Perhaps there is a
grand plan that we haven't figured out yet. Perhaps companies like GM are
pushing gas guzzling SUVs to purposely run the world out of oil supplies.
Once all the oil is gone instead of charging $30-40K for their newest
products they can charge $80-100K to sell us electrics with the same
functionality. The higher the price point they start at the more potential
profit they can sneak in...
Interesting theory. Do you think they are intelligent enough to think up
and implement such a plan?
No, totally tounge in cheek, but no more ridiculous than some of the
conspiracy theories floating around :-)
I think you must include the cost of Oil, oil changes, and cost to the
environment of the dirty oil, recycling costs of it. Also the costs of
increased health costs due to the pollution from the combustion. Some day,
hopefully, we will have less of this pollution. Your forgetting the oil
subsidies the government pays to keep the gas costs down to the consumers.
These come from our taxes.
I think the biggest problem EV's face is that most of the people in our
country and others are more concerned with the immediate (short term),
costs and not the long term and environmental costs. My wife, an
accountant, is one of those :(
Yup, and this is where the automakers have gotten it right. They realize
that people may say they are concerned about these issues, but when it comes
time to drag out the checkbook they find that they are not nearly as
concerned as they thought they were.
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:19 PM 15/11/05 +0000, damon henry wrote:
How can you compare the cost and hassle of a battery pack to that of a gas
tank?
Hi Damon
How can you compare if you haven't had to build a petrol tank, build the
emission control equipment, and all those hassles that are all taken care
of when you buy a manufactured liquid-fuelled vehicle.
Reverse the situation for a moment - if electrics were all you can buy
manufactured by a carmaker, you would have to do that to get a
petrol-powered car, what a pain, who would want to in comparison with the
simplicity of buying a manufactured electric vehicle with the battery pack
already in and all those hassles taken care of. Just drop it in to the EV
mechanic to have a new pack popped in when it needs it :^)
A fuel tank and a battery pack are only a hassle if the supporting systems
are not done right - and for most EVs they are done on a cost-limiting
budget, so are compromised. The trick for all of us is to get the best
result for our budgets.
Just playing devils' advocate for a moment.
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An even more amazing event on the beach in Florida next January is the
centennial on January 26th of the world speed record (127mph) set by a Stanley
Steamer in 1906. There'll be time trials on the beach as well as an expected
100 steam cars in attendance...:
http://ormondbeach.org/news/Stanley/Stanley-BirthofSpeed.htm
I'll be there....
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm into R/C a bit.. stuff exists mostly off the shelf. If you can
handle a web browser and a soldering iron then you can make an electric
mower a robot with now trouble. Look up stuff for battle bots. There are
lots of circuits and such for converting standard servos into big motor
contollers with external parts. But I agree that adding a micro and some
location sensors making it automatic would be more interesting to me!
-Jon Glauser
------
"The eyes of other people are the eyes that ruin us. If all but myself
were blind, I should not want neither fine cloths, fine house, nor fine
funiture." - Benjamin Franklin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
RE: Jay,
What type of range do you expect to get out of these and what are
you using to charge them?
John David
Thanks John David, you prompted me to recheck John Bryan's 2001 post about EV
efficiency. His Karmann Ghia was getting an average of @ 150 watt-hours per
mile, with extremes of 104 and 184. With a heavy duty helical-geared
transaxle, wide sticky meats, big tight Porsche wheel bearings, a heavier pack
and a leadfoot behind the Zilla, I'll conservatively project the Karmann
Eclectric to consume 200 watt-hours per mile.
The bb600 nicads appear to be reliably delivering @ 35 ahrs in EV service, so
if I plan on 30 amp hrs from my 336V pack, that would be a tad over 10 kwh.
Divide by a projected usage of 200 watt-hours per mile, and I get a projected
range of 50 miles. In 'classic cruiser' mode, with skinny rubber on vintage VW
wheels, I could expect more like 67 miles, plus reserve.
There aren't many options for charging a 336V pack, and what I gleaned from Lee
Hart says that with the nicads, a rapid charge would give less overall gassing,
so I'm saving pennies for a PFC 30, while hoping that the Madman deems it
appropo to offer an automatic nicad charging profile in future.
Cheers,
Jay Donnaway
www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Well there is know way to know for sure, and discussion of this particular
> subject on this list can easily turn into a flame war. I personally believe
> the automakers when they say that there is no market. Regardless of how
> much people bad mouth them I still believe their primary objective is to
> make money. If there was big money in making EVs they would do it. As far
> as I can tell no one has yet been able to make money building EVs, on either
> a small or large scale.
I agree, but didn't Henry Ford say he could have made plenty of money just
giving away the Model T, based solely on profits from parts and repairs?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I really hope that A123 get off the ground with this technology.
It's great that they have a contract for relatively high volume
production with B&D.
(Mass production means cheaper prices)
The really good thing is that the batteries will be readily available in
your local hardware store, so those with the proper gear will be able to
test them to see if the production batteries live up to the amazing
claims for cycle life and current output.
Imagine what the drag racers could do with a light weight pack that
could pump out 100C?
(If they were discharging at 100C, would they make it to the end of the
track? :-)
Assuming that the cordless tool business is profitable, I wonder if
they'll bother scaling up to EV sized batteries?
Hopefully they'll get a contract with a hybrid mfr.
Time will tell.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peri Hartman
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 5:21 AM
To: evdl
Subject: A123Systems li-ion technology
After a number of tries, I finally was able to talk to someone in their
Sales and Applications group (name withheld on purpose). They are
currently
working hard to fulfill their agreement with Black & Decker and I feel
honored to have received a little time with them. I have a few more
numbers
than are on their website and got permission to publish those here.
Form factor: 26650
nominal voltage: 3.35v
max voltage 3.6v
capacity: 2.2ah
internal resistance 10-12mohm
power density at 5 sec pulse: 3500w/kg
energy density: 100wh/kg
weight: 70g/cell
Cells may be available to customers other than Black & Decker (e.g. evdl
members) in mid 2006 but no pricing info is available yet. They will be
adding a lot more info to their website in the mean time, pending, I
think,
making sure their proprietary information is properly protected. The
cells
will need a BMS and I didn't get any assurance as to whether whatever
Black
& Decker will use would be useful or available to us.
-- Peri Hartman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
If they got the design correct in the first place in a series motor changeing
this may make things worse.
What would a side effect of having too much field winding of a series motor be?
If there was way too much field strength I would think the motor RPM might be
too low to be practical but is there anything else that could be an undesirable
effect?
Thanks,
Nathan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice... just about what I was mulling around in my head :)
I guess that it proves the real-world performance levels that have been
demonstrated with this setup, something to shoot for in a conversion ;)
I was thinking for costs sake to use a Honda GX series engine, they are
available in the 5-20HP range. Single and twin cylinder, OHV, and I am very
familiar with the smaller ones when used in go-karts. Very reliable with high
duty cycles, lightweight, clean-burning and quiet. Any other suggestions?
Now about the clutch... I was looking at some of the higher power kart stuff available (8-20HP) through the various dealers around here. They are mostly the v-belt variety, with a few chain setups. I know the kart ones often have full idle release (when the engine isn't turning or less then engage RPM, the output side spins freely), which would be important in this application.
As to the ICE throttle modulation, I was thinking of running a PIC
microcontroller to read the current PWM level (0-100%) from the serial port of
an Alltrax 72V 450A controller (they can run safely up to 100V peak according
to the manufacturer). I have used these before (the PIC) in various projects
and are familiar with the interface and programming of them. Then by applying a
simple weight map (same idea as a fuel injection controller), use the PWM
output of the PIC to drive a pull-type solenoid against the throttle with a
return spring. This would give a fail-safe adjustable drive-by-wire setup for
around $50 (+ many, many hours of tuning)
For the given target car (1580lbs empty including 3.4 rear-end and 5 speed OD tranny), I
was planning on a 7-9KWh battery pack (84V 100Ah). Would a 6.7" or 8" motor do
better in this setup? Given that I would likely need to keep the RPM below 6000 (for the
sake of the bearings in the clutch)...
Hello Stefan,
what you describe sounds like the TwinTrak drivetrain, invented and
patented by the Swiss company Esoro in the early 90s:
http://www.esoro.ch/english/content/kernk/nhanst/h301/h.htm
They build a handful prototypes of their H301 hybrid which are still
running,
but of course no big carmaker ever wanted to licence their concept
(probably "no demand", as usual).
Regards, Jens
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
I'm doing some similar modeling (3D CAD) - Using Alibre and
SolidWorks... let me know what you might be interested in. I'd certainly
be willing to toss .step or .igs files on the internet for download.
One source for files (free) that may be of interest is
http://www.3dcontentcentral.com/3DContentCentral/cc_frame.asp
I'd place components at this location. We may be able to
convince the site administrators to set-up an EV Components directory!?
Let me know what you have in mind (on or off-list).
-Craig
Electric Daytona
http://www.geocities.com/cmmuell/
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 3:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: CAD models for common EV components.
Hi all,
I was wondering if there was a community repository of autodesk or
other
cad files for EV components. I've been working on designing my car in
Autodesk Inventor 10 and this would be a huge boon to anyone trying to
do
this.
Otmar, Roderick, others: Can you provide models for the components you
make/sell?
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Finally, folks in the Pacific North West got a "Hands ON - First Hand
look at California Cars Initiative's "Prius PLUS" This Monday, 11/14.
Felix Kramer, the founder of CalCars, and Ron Gremban one of their lead
engineers, drove their 100 mpg Prius on to the court yard of Seattle
City Light. With TV cameras blazing, and Radio Microphones on "RECORD"
several dozen dignitaries and environmental types showed up for the
press conference. Seattle City Mayors office was represented, along with
City Light, the Mayors Task force on the Environment, City council
members, Puget Sound Clean Cities Org., Seattle Electric Vehicle
Association, and many more too numerous to mention.
Local media coverage was good, and very positive, but as always could
have been longer, and more detailed.
After the News Conference, the car traveled to South West Seattle to
South Seattle Community College, where one of the States largest
Automotive programs is taught, and the students got a chance to see the
car and ask more technical questions.
Then it was off to Wenatchee Washington in Eastern Washington for a
conference to kick-start a Pug-In Hybrid program much like what Austin
Texas is currently working on, where cars might be modified on a near
assembly line like basis, for those who can NOT Wait for Toyota to
create Plug-In hybrids off their own assembly lines.
On behalf of the Seattle EV Association, we sincerely Thank Felix and
company for their visit to the Pacific North West, and wish them well in
all their most important work.
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
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I'm a lurker for the most part but Jim, I just need to say thank you for
your expertise. I have read almost all of your posts and learned more
about motors from you than I have reading this list for a year. Thanks
for sharing your experience and knowlege with the world (for free none
the less!!).
There are several experienced people on this list who share their
hard-earned knowlege and experience with all of us and we'd be in the
dark without them.
Thanks
-Jon Glauser
------
"You get out of life what you put into it. Thats the trouble." - Arnold
Glasow
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--- Begin Message ---
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
... so I'm saving pennies for a PFC 30, while hoping that the Madman deems it
appropo to offer an
automatic nicad charging profile in future.
Me too! Especially with a NiCad profile. And at the rate I'm going, the liquid
cooling option
might be available too.
Now if I could just get that adapter plate.....
Dave Cover
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--- Begin Message ---
Very interesting. I wonder if one of the huge packs could be purchased and
divided up into smaller groups. I suppose it depends on how it is packaged.
Mark
On 11/15/05, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I just found out that there is a Hawker battery plant about 5 miles
> from here, within a half mile of that surplus outfit that liquidated
> all the AVS bus parts.
>
> I have a contact there and am going on a tour shortly. Unfortunately
> this plant doesn't make anything we're interested in, only the huge
> packs used in the AVS buses and the like.
>
> Still, nice to have one in the neighborhood.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
>
--
Mark
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Stefan and All,
"Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Nice... just about what I was
mulling around in my head :)
I guess that it proves the real-world performance levels that have been
demonstrated with this setup, something to shoot for in a conversion ;)
I was thinking for costs sake to use a Honda GX series engine, they are
available in the 5-20HP range. Single and twin cylinder, OHV, and I am very
familiar with the smaller ones when used in go-karts. Very reliable with high
duty cycles, lightweight, clean-burning and quiet. Any other suggestions?
Robin/Subaru motors are more eff, cleaner. Also the 3cyl Metro
motor only weighs about 100 lbs with even cleaner, more eff power.
Now about the clutch... I was looking at some of the higher power kart stuff
available (8-20HP) through the various dealers around here. They are mostly the
v-belt variety, with a few chain setups. I know the kart ones often have full
idle release (when the engine isn't turning or less then engage RPM, the output
side spins freely), which would be important in this application.
Unless you go to the larger motors, it's better to go series hybrid
and save the cost, hassle of mechanicly coupling it to the drive wheels.
For a low drag aero EV, I go for 5-7hp/1,000lbs of vehicle for
continious driving.
As to the ICE throttle modulation, I was thinking of running a PIC
microcontroller to read the current PWM level (0-100%) from the serial port of
an Alltrax 72V 450A controller (they can run safely up to 100V peak according
to the manufacturer). I have used these before (the PIC) in various projects
and are familiar with the interface and programming of them. Then by applying a
simple weight map (same idea as a fuel injection controller), use the PWM
output of the PIC to drive a pull-type solenoid against the throttle with a
return spring. This would give a fail-safe adjustable drive-by-wire setup for
around $50 (+ many, many hours of tuning)
For the given target car (1580lbs empty including 3.4 rear-end and 5 speed OD
tranny), I was planning on a 7-9KWh battery pack (84V 100Ah).
Only Ni-cads will do that much, Derate lead batts 35% or more.
Just what car are you going to have at that weight?
Would a 6.7" or 8" motor do better in this setup?
The 8" or 2- 6.7" Since you will be going much longer than an hr,
you need a bigger motor to handle the longer power.
Given that I would likely need to keep the RPM below 6000 (for the sake of
the bearings in the clutch)...
Under 6k rpm's is a given for unpreped series motors. But most
will do that.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
> Hello Stefan,
>
> what you describe sounds like the TwinTrak drivetrain, invented and
> patented by the Swiss company Esoro in the early 90s:
> http://www.esoro.ch/english/content/kernk/nhanst/h301/h.htm
>
> They build a handful prototypes of their H301 hybrid which are still
> running,
> but of course no big carmaker ever wanted to licence their concept
> (probably "no demand", as usual).
>
> Regards, Jens
--
Stefan T. Peters
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
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There aren't many options for charging a 336V pack, and what I gleaned from Lee
Hart says that with the nicads, a rapid charge would give less overall gassing,
so I'm saving pennies for a PFC 30, while hoping that the Madman deems it
appropo to offer an automatic nicad charging profile in future.
As a point of reference, I am using a dumb-as-toast linear transformer
on an Elec-trak E20 to charge my pack of sixty BB600 batteries in a 2*30
configuration.
So far works like a charm. The E20 will charge the pack to 44 volts
@20a, then ramp down steeply to 2a at 45 volts. Brings the pack to full
charge with a .85 CEF and minimal gassing (haven't needed to add water yet)
In parallel charging I've noticed that the batteries suck different amp
amounts during the charge, but always even out within .1a. On discharge
they may go out of sync as much as an amp hour or two.
I'll be going to ninty batteries in a few weeks for the winter and might
run an additional thirty in an external pack for the snowblower.
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:11:21 -0800, Mark Dodrill
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Very interesting. I wonder if one of the huge packs could be purchased and
>divided up into smaller groups. I suppose it depends on how it is packaged.
These are high capacity, moderate voltage packs such as used in
forklifts and other industrial electric vehicles. Each cell is larger
than several of the batteries we use. Maybe if we could come up with,
say, a 10,000 amp, 12 volt design :-)
John
> Mark
>
> On 11/15/05, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> I just found out that there is a Hawker battery plant about 5 miles
>> from here, within a half mile of that surplus outfit that liquidated
>> all the AVS bus parts.
>>
>> I have a contact there and am going on a tour shortly. Unfortunately
>> this plant doesn't make anything we're interested in, only the huge
>> packs used in the AVS buses and the like.
>>
>> Still, nice to have one in the neighborhood.
>>
>> John
>> ---
>> John De Armond
>> See my website for my current email address
>> http://www.johngsbbq.com
>> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>>
>>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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--- Begin Message ---
On 15 Nov 2005 at 11:20, Nick Austin wrote:
> Solectrias only shot was EVs. This was the only market that
> they were in, so if they were unsuccessful making and selling EVs, then they
> had nothing else.
I don't know about that. Of course I speak as an outside observer, but from
what I can tell, other than the first big push of building Forces in the
early 1990s, turnkey EVs were never a big factor in their business. They
supplied EV components, consulting, and design services.
They were never cheap nor did they give anything away. This was part of the
reason for their long term survival, I believe. They had an excellent
reputation for high quality, reliability, and support. They also seem to
have been very good at grantwriting in connection with those products.
> That's why I would tend to give more credence to any statements
> Solectria would make on this topic.
Well, nothing in the comments you cite sets off my BS detector.
I don't speak for any of their principals, but I'd guess that they had a
good dose of EV idealism, tempered with rather more practical business sense
than many other similar EV businesses possessed. That might explain their
perspective on this matter.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
> The thing that struck me most about this statement was not the fact
> that it brought up many of the same tired arguments against EVs, but the
> fact that it was made by Solectria.
>
> they were in, so if they were unsuccessful making and selling EVs, then
> they had nothing else.
>
> That's why I would tend to give more credence to any statements Solectria
> would make on this topic.
>
A couple thoughts on this:
1) as far as I recall Solectria never really tried marketing EVs to
individuals.
2) Solectria vehicles were VERY expensive.
3) Wrong time. Solectria was trying to market high priced EVs when gas
was $1 a gallon. They gave up before gas hit $3 a gallon.
I think they might find a better market if they tried selling EVs to
individuals now.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone in Oregon want a Sinclair C5:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7197172726
?!
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--- Begin Message ---
http://www.zapworld.com/cars/xebra.asp Now if they just don't screw it up.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Write Zap a letter and say since they are sold out through October and
November could they give you at least one customer who has purchased one so
you can ask them how they like their car. I would love to hear their answer.
I can't do it. They already know me. The concept is great to get around the
25 mph speeds imposed on NEVs.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>;
"electric_vehicles_for_sale Moderator"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "SFEVA"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 6:39 AM
Subject: Robin Reliant move over.
http://www.zapworld.com/cars/xebra.asp Now if they just don't screw it up.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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