EV Digest 4907
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: CAD models for common EV components.
by "Christopher Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Battery restraints (was: RE: CAD models for common EV components.)
by "Christopher Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Toyota RAV-4 EV sold for $53,000
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: CAD models for common EV components.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery restraints (was: RE: CAD models for common EV components.)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Toyota RAV-4 EV sold for $53,000
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: CAD models for common EV components.
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: CAD models for common EV components.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: CAD models for common EV components.
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: CAD models for common EV components.
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Battery restraints (was: RE: CAD models for common EV
components.)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Range extending
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Toyota RAV-4 EV sold for $53,000
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Adapter plate thickness
by "acid_lead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Range extending
by Chris Martens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Range extending
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Toyota RAV-4 EV sold for $53,000
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Toyota RAV-4 EV sold for $53,000
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Just Joshin' Electric-car driver was not an eco-terrorist, FBI admits
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: CAD models for common EV components.
by "acid_lead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Xebra EV
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Battery restraints (was: RE: CAD models for common EV components.)
by "acid_lead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Craig Mueller wrote:
> I'm doing some similar modeling (3D CAD) - Using Alibre and
> SolidWorks... let me know what you might be interested in. I'd
certainly
> be willing to toss .step or .igs files on the internet for download.
>
> One source for files (free) that may be of interest is
>
> http://www.3dcontentcentral.com/3DContentCentral/cc_frame.asp
>
> I'd place components at this location. We may be able to
> convince the site administrators to set-up an EV Components
directory!?
>
> Let me know what you have in mind (on or off-list).
Hi Craig,
I'm doing some modeling in Alibre as well and I'm willing to donate any
generic component models I generate. George Tylinsky was good enough to
give me his models for group 34 Orbital and Optima batteries, which was
a welcome time-saver.
One question that arises is how detailed the models should be. For
example I have very basic models of a Zilla Z1k and Z2k that work fine
for my current needs. To make them absolutely complete and perfectly
representative would take much more time, might double or triple their
file size and slow assembly regeneration, panning/zooming, etc.
Also when uploading these files it would be helpful to include the
weight of the item. Density information is not transferred in the
generic STEP file (or IGES?), so a weight is needed to enter that data
in your native application.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Craig Mueller wrote:
> -Craig
> Electric Daytona
> http://www.geocities.com/cmmuell/
Ummm, I hope I'm wrong here and most likely am, but in all those
pictures I see no battery hold-downs anywhere. At first I figured they
just happened to have been removed when the pictures were taken, but
looking closer I see nowhere for battery hold-downs to attach.
For the benefit of the newbies and on the off chance that there are in
fact no battery hold-downs in your car, let me *strenuously* suggest you
install some. Soon. The batteries under the hood are bad enough - the
hood won't hold them, it will likely buckle and/or unlatch in a
collision. The ones in the passenger compartment will literally pound
you into a lifeless pulp in a moderately severe collision. A collision
from which you might otherwise be able to walk away with only minor
injuries.
I believe NEDRA wants battery restraints to survive impacts of 8g
lateral and 4g vertical. The Tour del Sol is more stringent (my copy of
the regs is dated 5/03), requiring 20g front impact, 10g side and rear,
5g rollover.
Speaking very generally and assuming prudent design and construction,
you can probably satisfy all these requirements using 1 x 1/8 angle
steel in contact with at least two opposite edges of each individual
battery. Use no less than one 3/8 bolt per every two batteries
(depending on the size and shape of the pack in question), assuming
proper distribution around the restraint to spread the load.
People have been killed by flying objects as small as a cell phone in a
collision. 60+ lb. batteries are not to be trifled with.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
During our EVA/DC meeting yesterday Brian Murtha, who owns a RAV-4 EV,
turned to me and showed me a message on his Blackberry that said a
RAV-4 EV on eBay just sold for $53,000. That's right $53,000!!
Bidding went pretty crazy during the last two minutes apparently.
Anyone else hear about this?
People are wanting EV's and paying the price to get the EV grin.
Chip Gribben
Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cad files for EV components???
We have Acad files on all the Manzanita Micro chargers. But we are using a
very old version of Acad Lite.
We could supply model files for customers... I just have never thought
about it.
It's cool to surf into a site and grab the PDFs and then also suck down the
Spice files and Orcad libraries...
This also keeps you folks from pestering me about specs... if you can
download them faster than asking me directly.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 8:09 AM
Subject: RE: CAD models for common EV components.
> Craig Mueller wrote:
>
> > I'm doing some similar modeling (3D CAD) - Using Alibre and
> > SolidWorks... let me know what you might be interested in. I'd
> certainly
> > be willing to toss .step or .igs files on the internet for download.
> >
> > One source for files (free) that may be of interest is
> >
> > http://www.3dcontentcentral.com/3DContentCentral/cc_frame.asp
> >
> > I'd place components at this location. We may be able to
> > convince the site administrators to set-up an EV Components
> directory!?
> >
> > Let me know what you have in mind (on or off-list).
>
> Hi Craig,
>
> I'm doing some modeling in Alibre as well and I'm willing to donate any
> generic component models I generate. George Tylinsky was good enough to
> give me his models for group 34 Orbital and Optima batteries, which was
> a welcome time-saver.
>
> One question that arises is how detailed the models should be. For
> example I have very basic models of a Zilla Z1k and Z2k that work fine
> for my current needs. To make them absolutely complete and perfectly
> representative would take much more time, might double or triple their
> file size and slow assembly regeneration, panning/zooming, etc.
>
> Also when uploading these files it would be helpful to include the
> weight of the item. Density information is not transferred in the
> generic STEP file (or IGES?), so a weight is needed to enter that data
> in your native application.
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And then we have folks like me... I have run years without any battery tie
downs... Gravity tie downs I call them.
Gee again I am not very Dead.
Yes Goldie is NHRA Battery tie down legal.
The Fiero is not... and has not been raced.
And all the lead is stuffed in the back trunk. And Can't really move
anyway...unless I roll it.
20 Gs is quite a bit of overkill.. And I thought NEDRA was 10 Gs.
Also we are not doing crash testing. At least on purpose.
Lets keep the safety in line with reality...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 8:32 AM
Subject: Battery restraints (was: RE: CAD models for common EV components.)
> Craig Mueller wrote:
>
> > -Craig
> > Electric Daytona
> > http://www.geocities.com/cmmuell/
>
> Ummm, I hope I'm wrong here and most likely am, but in all those
> pictures I see no battery hold-downs anywhere. At first I figured they
> just happened to have been removed when the pictures were taken, but
> looking closer I see nowhere for battery hold-downs to attach.
>
> For the benefit of the newbies and on the off chance that there are in
> fact no battery hold-downs in your car, let me *strenuously* suggest you
> install some. Soon. The batteries under the hood are bad enough - the
> hood won't hold them, it will likely buckle and/or unlatch in a
> collision. The ones in the passenger compartment will literally pound
> you into a lifeless pulp in a moderately severe collision. A collision
> from which you might otherwise be able to walk away with only minor
> injuries.
>
> I believe NEDRA wants battery restraints to survive impacts of 8g
> lateral and 4g vertical. The Tour del Sol is more stringent (my copy of
> the regs is dated 5/03), requiring 20g front impact, 10g side and rear,
> 5g rollover.
>
> Speaking very generally and assuming prudent design and construction,
> you can probably satisfy all these requirements using 1 x 1/8 angle
> steel in contact with at least two opposite edges of each individual
> battery. Use no less than one 3/8 bolt per every two batteries
> (depending on the size and shape of the pack in question), assuming
> proper distribution around the restraint to spread the load.
>
> People have been killed by flying objects as small as a cell phone in a
> collision. 60+ lb. batteries are not to be trifled with.
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 11:40 AM
Subject: Toyota RAV-4 EV sold for $53,000
> During our EVA/DC meeting yesterday Brian Murtha, who owns a RAV-4 EV,
> turned to me and showed me a message on his Blackberry that said a
> RAV-4 EV on eBay just sold for $53,000. That's right $53,000!!
>
> Bidding went pretty crazy during the last two minutes apparently.
> Anyone else hear about this?
>
> People are wanting EV's and paying the price to get the EV grin.
> Yup! EVen A Henny Kilowatt, A Renault Dauphine, rebadged. Gees! I'm
sitting on a gold mine with my 87 Sentra and Solectria Force out in the
garage and sheds! Havent EVen started with the Plymouth Sumdunce!<g>!
Seeya
Bob
Chip Gribben
> Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:00:36 -0800, "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Cad files for EV components???
>
>We have Acad files on all the Manzanita Micro chargers. But we are using a
>very old version of Acad Lite.
>We could supply model files for customers... I just have never thought
>about it.
Just export the files to DXF format. That's the universal interchange
format that pretty much every CAD and drawing package can use.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's a pretty old and very large uncompact file format.
I think there's newer better file format's.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: CAD models for common EV components.
> On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:00:36 -0800, "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >Cad files for EV components???
> >
> >We have Acad files on all the Manzanita Micro chargers. But we are using
a
> >very old version of Acad Lite.
> >We could supply model files for customers... I just have never thought
> >about it.
>
> Just export the files to DXF format. That's the universal interchange
> format that pretty much every CAD and drawing package can use.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:25:48 -0800, "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>That's a pretty old and very large uncompact file format.
>
>I think there's newer better file format's.
I don't know of anything that is universal. Just stick the DXF in a
zip. It's all text with a lot of white space so it crunches down
nicely.
John
>
>Rich Rudman
>Manzanita Micro
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 10:13 AM
>Subject: Re: CAD models for common EV components.
>
>
>> On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:00:36 -0800, "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Cad files for EV components???
>> >
>> >We have Acad files on all the Manzanita Micro chargers. But we are using
>a
>> >very old version of Acad Lite.
>> >We could supply model files for customers... I just have never thought
>> >about it.
>>
>> Just export the files to DXF format. That's the universal interchange
>> format that pretty much every CAD and drawing package can use.
>>
>> John
>> ---
>> John De Armond
>> See my website for my current email address
>> http://www.johngsbbq.com
>> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>>
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to agree with John on this one. DXF is still the universal 2D
drawing interchange format.
cheers,
Andrew
Rich Rudman wrote:
That's a pretty old and very large uncompact file format.
I think there's newer better file format's.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: CAD models for common EV components.
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:00:36 -0800, "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Cad files for EV components???
We have Acad files on all the Manzanita Micro chargers. But we are using
a
very old version of Acad Lite.
We could supply model files for customers... I just have never thought
about it.
Just export the files to DXF format. That's the universal interchange
format that pretty much every CAD and drawing package can use.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Rich,
exactly how many crashes has that Fiero been in?
> And then we have folks like me... I have run years without any battery tie
> downs... Gravity tie downs I call them.
> Gee again I am not very Dead.
>
> Yes Goldie is NHRA Battery tie down legal.
> The Fiero is not... and has not been raced.
> And all the lead is stuffed in the back trunk. And Can't really move
> anyway...unless I roll it.
>
> 20 Gs is quite a bit of overkill.. And I thought NEDRA was 10 Gs.
>
> Also we are not doing crash testing. At least on purpose.
>
> Lets keep the safety in line with reality...
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Christopher Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 8:32 AM
> Subject: Battery restraints (was: RE: CAD models for common EV
> components.)
>
>
>> Craig Mueller wrote:
>>
>> > -Craig
>> > Electric Daytona
>> > http://www.geocities.com/cmmuell/
>>
>> Ummm, I hope I'm wrong here and most likely am, but in all those
>> pictures I see no battery hold-downs anywhere. At first I figured they
>> just happened to have been removed when the pictures were taken, but
>> looking closer I see nowhere for battery hold-downs to attach.
>>
>> For the benefit of the newbies and on the off chance that there are in
>> fact no battery hold-downs in your car, let me *strenuously* suggest you
>> install some. Soon. The batteries under the hood are bad enough - the
>> hood won't hold them, it will likely buckle and/or unlatch in a
>> collision. The ones in the passenger compartment will literally pound
>> you into a lifeless pulp in a moderately severe collision. A collision
>> from which you might otherwise be able to walk away with only minor
>> injuries.
>>
>> I believe NEDRA wants battery restraints to survive impacts of 8g
>> lateral and 4g vertical. The Tour del Sol is more stringent (my copy of
>> the regs is dated 5/03), requiring 20g front impact, 10g side and rear,
>> 5g rollover.
>>
>> Speaking very generally and assuming prudent design and construction,
>> you can probably satisfy all these requirements using 1 x 1/8 angle
>> steel in contact with at least two opposite edges of each individual
>> battery. Use no less than one 3/8 bolt per every two batteries
>> (depending on the size and shape of the pack in question), assuming
>> proper distribution around the restraint to spread the load.
>>
>> People have been killed by flying objects as small as a cell phone in a
>> collision. 60+ lb. batteries are not to be trifled with.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris wrote:
> This has the advantage of running the gas motor at full throttle when
it is
> running, greatly increasing it's efficiency.
Watch out for decreased engine life... you will need to keep the engine
at 40-60% redline RPM for it to last very long, perhaps with mixture
settings/intake heating - see http://cpl.usc.edu/throttleless/ for a
possible idea.
The engine will only be seeing a limited RPM range in actual use, the
throttling action should be small. Engines can be adjusted to run at
different RPM/intake restriction efficiencies. Compression ratios, valve
timing, and mixture settings are typically the way to do this. Hunt
around for tech info on large compressor/hight duty cycle fixed
generator setups. They have done alot of good research in this field to
eek out every last drop of fuel in these kinds of installations.
I'm just not sure that the increase in efficiency of running a
specialized ICE setup will make up for the comparative loss in
efficiencies when running a series configuration... (a simple mechanical
coupling can run at almost 100% power transmission eff., AFAIK
generators+wires+batteries are quite there yet) Hey, I may be completely
wrong here, so it's good to have ppl pushing the practical envelopes of
both configs ;)
Jerry wrote:
> Robin/Subaru motors are more eff, cleaner. Also the 3cyl Metro motor
only weighs about 100 lbs with even cleaner, more eff power.
I have heard that about Robins from other kart stands, but no one I met
so far can attest to the durability of these. (anyone?) How big is the 3
cyl Metro? But more importantly, can I buy one new (or slightly used)
and get ample parts down the line?
Heck, if money was no object, I would be tempted to get a Rotax (912UL -
134LB, 50HP/55FtLB/4.2GPH @ 4800RPM, 81HP/72FtLB/6.3GPH @ 5800RPM) :D
But alas, I'm looking for practicality over performance.
> Unless you go to the larger motors, it's better to go series hybrid
and save the cost, hassle of mechanicly coupling it to the drive wheels.
> For a low drag aero EV, I go for 5-7hp/1,000lbs of vehicle for
continious driving.
Yup, those are the figures I'm using. So for a 2,000lbs vehicle, that
means 6HP from the ICE, 6HP from the electric motor. Hmm... when I
tallied it up, the cost and complexity of series setups came out much
higher:
Series: ICE, ICE Control, Generator, Coupling, Wiring, Charger/Regulator
Parallel: ICE, ICE Control, Clutch/Coupling (to electric motor
drivetrain, not wheels)
This is given that that Charger/Regulator cost comes in close to the ICE
cost! (if you actually want to keep your batteries, especially with AGM)
Do you have any ideas to lower those cost?
Now as far as "better", that is what we are not sure of at this point.
There just have not been enough real-world implementations of either
setup to convince me one way or another, especially with ELECTRIC
hybrids instead of GAS hybrids (electricity being the prime mover
instead of gas). We can guess and assume all we what, still doesn't
necessarily make any of us right ;)
This is such a infantile field of study, who knows what we will find out
as we all experiment with it. I think that the more diverging paths of
research and fiddling at the beginning, the better for all further down
the road (pun intended). And the "better" setup will change over time as
other new tech is introduced from other fields of study. I'm simply
going with what I'm good at (mechanical drive systems, embedded
microprocessor control systems). This ensure that I have at least a
chance of doing it well. There are some gear-heads/computer techs among
us after all... an atlantic series engine humming along at 8000RPM is
still a mighty beautiful thing to me ;) Something about
100HP/100MPH/Liter is vaguely seductive. I don't see ICE as evil, just
not "what's next". Those of you familiar with electrical systems,
generators, battery management and the like would probably find more
success with a series setup.
So, anyone with alternative clutch ideas?
> Only Ni-cads will do that much, Derate lead batts 35% or more.
> Just what car are you going to have at that weight?
See how little I know about batts? I thought some of the Trojans went
over 200Ah when running an hour? Did I miss your point perhaps?
The car is a 1968 Datsun 2000 Roadster, and that IS the complete weight
of the car right now in my garage (sans original ICE and related gunk,
gas tank, electrical, wheels/tires). I bought it from someone who had it
setup for racing, so it has already been lightened and stiffened and
plenty of suspension added for
the extra weight. I removed all the extra racing safety stuff and found
myself at that weight on the jackstands.
> The 8" or 2- 6.7" Since you will be going much longer than an hr, you
need a bigger motor to handle the longer power.
Actually, I checked and a 8" w/tailshaft will fit nicely in there
(couple inches on either side), with plenty of headroom above for a
typical 250cc-ish ICE. The goal is to go around 2 hours a run, and I
would like this car to last quite a long time, if possible. Thanks for
the info!
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chip Gribben wrote:
During our EVA/DC meeting yesterday Brian Murtha, who owns a RAV-4 EV,
turned to me and showed me a message on his Blackberry that said a
RAV-4 EV on eBay just sold for $53,000. That's right $53,000!!
Bidding went pretty crazy during the last two minutes apparently. Anyone
else hear about this?
People are wanting EV's and paying the price to get the EV grin.
Chip, this is not quite "people". This was an individual
with $53k laying around for that kind of fun. Yes, there are
plenty of wealthy individuals, some of them willing to pay $53k
for a RAV4-EV. May be 20, may be 100. But even at 1000 mark,
it is not "people" (millions) as defined or seen by manufacturers.
No one will start producing anything for 1000 people - this
is rather in collectibles category.
What percentage do you think of US population needing EV
can plunk $53k for it in one shot, like this guy did?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It depends on how the weight of the motor is supported. I have mounts
on the front of the motor and rear of the trans, so my adapter plate
(and unfortunately motor end screws) are heavily loaded. Still, 3/8"
aluminum would probably be fine. Go too thin and you may encounter
vibration or noise issues. Aluminum is light enough to err on the
robust side. If you want to err on the light side, think about how
you'd add a stiffener(s) later if needed.
- GT
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Chris Martens wrote:
> > I am making an adapter plate for my Geo Metro conversion. Is 3/8
inch
> > steel thick enough? Maybe 1/2 inch? The plate will only be
12"x14", and
> > I'm not using a big motor.
>
> 3/8" steel or even aluminum, is *far* stronger than it needs to be.
Strength
> is not the issue; notice that the exisin ICE's bellhousing isn't
nearly that
> thick.
>
> As others have noted, the reason for the thickness of the adapter
plate is
> mainly to act as a spacer of the desired thickness to properly
position the
> motor. I've seen adapter plates made out of hardboard.
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I'm just not sure that the increase in efficiency of running a
> specialized ICE setup will make up for the comparative loss in
> efficiencies when running a series configuration... (a simple mechanical
> coupling can run at almost 100% power transmission eff., AFAIK
I don't know if I will get substantially better mileage on long trips, but with
some solar charging and a grid possibility as well, the motor is more of a back
up. The idea of mechanically connecting the engine is good too, saves you the
weight of the generators. With a small motor, there wouldn't be much throttling
anyway.
At the moment, I first concerned with converting the vehicle to electric. Then
hook up the solar, then the generator.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 16 Nov 2005 at 11:20, Stefan T. Peters wrote:
> I'm just not sure that the increase in efficiency of running a
> specialized ICE setup will make up for the comparative loss in
> efficiencies when running a series configuration
I'm no expert, but Stefan might well be right. The efficiency gains might
have been substantial 30 years ago. But with modern microprocessor control
of ICEs, a lot of the advantages to fixed-speed ICE operation have probably
been obviated. Today, I think parallel hybrid is the way to go. By
"parallel hybrid" I don't mean Toyota or Honda style drive where gasoline is
the sole source of energy; I mean ^true^ hybrid where the energy can come
from stored electricity, onboard fossil fuel, or both.
Speaking of which : I read years ago that the Fiat Multipla MPV was
available with a true hybrid drive. Recently I read another assertion to
that effect. Maybe our European correspondents can tell us whether that
option really exists, or whether it's just vaporware.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 16 Nov 2005 at 11:33, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> No one will start producing anything for 1000 people - this
> is rather in collectibles category.
Certainly none of the major automakers will. I'm not making apologies for
them, but let's face it - they run on slim profit margins. When they sell
something with a severly limited market, they have to be able to perceive
other long-term benefits from it. So far, right or wrong, they haven't
perceived such benefit in 4-wheel road EVs.
But a small operation can survive this way. The regulatory environment in
the US and Europe makes it almost impossible for a small manufacturer to
produce and sell something like the RAV4-EV, but there are other EV products
that can be successful in relatively small numbers and limited markets. In
fact some already are: E-scooters and E-bikes.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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The question is how many people today plunk down $53K for a car and
still have to add gasoline on a regular basis. Obviously not most
people, but enough to make business for Mercedes, Cadillac, BMW and
many other automakers. Is there a market for equivalent priced cars
that never need gas? I think so.
On Nov 16, 2005, at 11:33 AM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Chip Gribben wrote:
During our EVA/DC meeting yesterday Brian Murtha, who owns a RAV-4
EV, turned to me and showed me a message on his Blackberry that
said a RAV-4 EV on eBay just sold for $53,000. That's right
$53,000!!
Bidding went pretty crazy during the last two minutes apparently.
Anyone else hear about this?
People are wanting EV's and paying the price to get the EV grin.
Chip, this is not quite "people". This was an individual
with $53k laying around for that kind of fun. Yes, there are
plenty of wealthy individuals, some of them willing to pay $53k
for a RAV4-EV. May be 20, may be 100. But even at 1000 mark,
it is not "people" (millions) as defined or seen by manufacturers.
No one will start producing anything for 1000 people - this
is rather in collectibles category.
What percentage do you think of US population needing EV
can plunk $53k for it in one shot, like this guy did?
Victor
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FROM THE DAILY GRIST
The FBI will issue a rare "letter of regret" and pay environmentalist Josh
Connole $100,000 after mistakenly arresting him for domestic terrorism.
Agents followed Connole for several days in 2003, after arson-vandalism
attacks at four Southern California car dealerships in which gas-guzzlers
were spray-painted with phrases like "Fat, Lazy Americans." His suspicious
activities included living communally with fellow vegans, installing solar
panels, protesting the Iraq war, and (horrors!) driving an electric car.
When Connole caught on to the surveillance and approached local law
enforcement for help, FBI agents arrested him, held him for four days --
often chained to a floor -- and prodded him to confess to the arsons. But
oopsie! Another guy did it, and even wrote to the Los Angeles Times mocking
the FBI for arresting the wrong man. Asks Bill Paparian, Connole's lawyer,
"How does advocacy of electric cars become the basis for suspicion?" Now
please excuse us while we check the office for bugs ...
straight to the source: Newsweek, Michael Isikoff, 21 Nov 2005
straight to the source: Reuters, Dan Whitcomb, 15 Nov 2005
straight to the source: Los Angeles Times, David Rosenzweig, 15 Nov 2005
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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While I'd encourage anyone with CAD 2D or 3D data to make it publicly
available, as I intend to... it's all subject to change. That's why
you should get info direct from the mfr if possible for the exact
version of the product you expect to use. As said, there's also a
variety of neutral file formats (and flavors of each format if you
get into detail).
Regarding detail, initially you just need a blocky envelope and
mounting hole pattern and size. Later you need airflow clearance,
cable entry/exit, access to display and controls, etc. This can be
handled with 2 separate models. You can easily switch between simple
and detailed configurations at will if you place both in the model.
It behooves the mfr to provide as much data as they can, even if only
basic, to facilitate proper installation.
- GT
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Christopher Tromley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Craig Mueller wrote:
>
> > I'm doing some similar modeling (3D CAD) - Using Alibre and
> > SolidWorks... let me know what you might be interested in. I'd
> certainly
> > be willing to toss .step or .igs files on the internet for
download.
> >
> > One source for files (free) that may be of interest is
> >
> > http://www.3dcontentcentral.com/3DContentCentral/cc_frame.asp
> >
> > I'd place components at this location. We may be able to
> > convince the site administrators to set-up an EV Components
> directory!?
> >
> > Let me know what you have in mind (on or off-list).
>
> Hi Craig,
>
> I'm doing some modeling in Alibre as well and I'm willing to donate
any
> generic component models I generate. George Tylinsky was good
enough to
> give me his models for group 34 Orbital and Optima batteries, which
was
> a welcome time-saver.
>
> One question that arises is how detailed the models should be. For
> example I have very basic models of a Zilla Z1k and Z2k that work
fine
> for my current needs. To make them absolutely complete and
perfectly
> representative would take much more time, might double or triple
their
> file size and slow assembly regeneration, panning/zooming, etc.
>
> Also when uploading these files it would be helpful to include the
> weight of the item. Density information is not transferred in the
> generic STEP file (or IGES?), so a weight is needed to enter that
data
> in your native application.
>
> Chris
>
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And it looks like the City of Hillsborough is
considering buying two of Zap's Xebra's. They're
getting $2,000 from the Bay Area Air Quality
Management Board to help offset the $19,000 cost.
Seems like the city did its homework. It would be
interesting to get a copy of the report by William
Boenig they mention below, and to find out if this got
approved at the City Council meeting Monday. Maybe we
could get San Francisco city interested too. Assuming,
of course, that Zap is really selling these.
Sherry
TOWN OF HILLSBOROUGH
San Mateo County
Thomas M. Kasten, Mayor 1600 Floribunda Avenue
Catherine U. Mullooly, Vice Mayor Hillsborough, CA
94010
D. Paul Regan
John J. Fannon
Christine M. Krolik
HILLSBOROUGH CITY COUNCIL
Monday, November 14, 2005, 6:00 p.m.
Hillsborough Town Hall, 1600 Floribunda Avenue,
Hillsborough
11. RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING $19,729 FOR THE PURCHASE OF
TWO ZAP XEBRA ELECTRIC VEHICLES, AND ACCEPTING THE BAY
AREA AIR QUALITY MANAGEMENT DISTRICTS $2,000
REIMBURSEMENT (Public Works Director)
Summary: Staff proposed in the 2005/06 budget the
acquisition of two electric vehicles for $15,000 in
the Public Works Administration budget to serve as
pool cars. Electric vehicles were considered as an
option in order to reduce noise generated by vehicles
traveling in and out of the Municipal Service Center
and minimize operation costs. Employees using the
vehicles will include clerical staff, inspectors and
others who will limit their travels within the Towns
jurisdiction.
Several vehicles and manufacturers were considered
before soliciting a proposal. The class of vehicle
studied is called Neighborhood Electric Vehicles or
NEVs, which is typically used for short commutes in
residential areas. Most NEVs are mechanically
regulated to a limited speed of 25 mph. Because of
Hillsboroughs topography, the power of the vehicles
to climb steeper grades was closely evaluated. The
vehicle that most closely matches the Towns budget
and needs was the ZAP Xebra, which is a 3-wheeled,
4-passenger vehicle. The vehicle is manufactured in
Santa Rosa, and will be serviced from that location.
Average cost of operation per year is estimated at
$300. A full discussion of the vehicles evaluated is
in the attached letter from William Boenig of CSG who
researched the acquisition of the vehicles. ZAP has
also committed to allowing the return of the vehicles
if they do not perform adequately when placed into
service in Hillsborough.
The Xebra is sold exclusively by the manufacturer ZAP
Inc. of Santa Rosa. Because there are no other
distributors of the vehicles, no other proposals were
solicited. The bid price for the two ZAP Xebras is
$19,729 including tax, license and delivery fees.
Staff applied for and received grant vouchers from the
Bay Area Air Quality Management District to reimburse
the Town $1,000 per NEV ($2,000 total), which would
reduce the Towns total cost to $17,729.
Recommendation: Staff recommends adoption of the
resolution authorizing $19,729 for the purchase of two
ZAP Xebra electric vehicles, and accepting the Bay
Area Air Quality Management Districts $2,000
reimbursement vouchers.
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> http://www.zapworld.com/cars/xebra.asp Now if they
> just don't screw it up.
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> 415-821-3519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
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NEDRA is in fact 8g horz./4g vert. I'm designing to this with a
generous safety factor where it's easy to do so. It also has to "look
right" to me, unless an analysis persuades me strongly otherwise.
20g is what you'd design to if you didn't know the loads. I've read
the TDS regs and it looks to be written by academics terrified of
lawsuits. That's completely within their rights since it's their
game, but they've certainly lost me as a participant.
I've designed to 20g before - for submarine depth charges and
helicopter crash landings... And that's 20g peak on a half-sine, 11
msec dynamic load. This is much less severe than a static 20g load,
unless your structure resonates with a .022 second period (it might!).
Still, my stuff looks stouter than what I see in most other
conversions. I have the ability and desire to design at this level,
so I do. At the expense of some weight and cost, I will have a safer
car. No car is perfectly safe, and there's no right answer to the
question of "how safe" it needs to be. You are responsible for the
safety of your own vehicle. If one of your loose batteries cripples
my daughter, I will stop at nothing to make the rest of your life
very miserable and way too long. Drive carefully when you're in
Portland, Oregon (I also have family in New York, Boston, and Mobile).
The NEDRA battery hold-down table is a good analysis as far as it
goes. It does not cover the bolt pulling through an oversize hole or
a hole too close the the edge of the sheet metal, but you also need
to take this into consideration.
- GT
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> And then we have folks like me... I have run years without any
battery tie
> downs... Gravity tie downs I call them.
> Gee again I am not very Dead.
>
> Yes Goldie is NHRA Battery tie down legal.
> The Fiero is not... and has not been raced.
> And all the lead is stuffed in the back trunk. And Can't really move
> anyway...unless I roll it.
>
> 20 Gs is quite a bit of overkill.. And I thought NEDRA was 10 Gs.
>
> Also we are not doing crash testing. At least on purpose.
>
> Lets keep the safety in line with reality...
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Christopher Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 8:32 AM
> Subject: Battery restraints (was: RE: CAD models for common EV
components.)
>
>
> > Craig Mueller wrote:
> >
> > > -Craig
> > > Electric Daytona
> > > http://www.geocities.com/cmmuell/
> >
> > Ummm, I hope I'm wrong here and most likely am, but in all those
> > pictures I see no battery hold-downs anywhere. At first I
figured they
> > just happened to have been removed when the pictures were taken,
but
> > looking closer I see nowhere for battery hold-downs to attach.
> >
> > For the benefit of the newbies and on the off chance that there
are in
> > fact no battery hold-downs in your car, let me *strenuously*
suggest you
> > install some. Soon. The batteries under the hood are bad
enough - the
> > hood won't hold them, it will likely buckle and/or unlatch in a
> > collision. The ones in the passenger compartment will literally
pound
> > you into a lifeless pulp in a moderately severe collision. A
collision
> > from which you might otherwise be able to walk away with only
minor
> > injuries.
> >
> > I believe NEDRA wants battery restraints to survive impacts of 8g
> > lateral and 4g vertical. The Tour del Sol is more stringent (my
copy of
> > the regs is dated 5/03), requiring 20g front impact, 10g side and
rear,
> > 5g rollover.
> >
> > Speaking very generally and assuming prudent design and
construction,
> > you can probably satisfy all these requirements using 1 x 1/8
angle
> > steel in contact with at least two opposite edges of each
individual
> > battery. Use no less than one 3/8 bolt per every two batteries
> > (depending on the size and shape of the pack in question),
assuming
> > proper distribution around the restraint to spread the load.
> >
> > People have been killed by flying objects as small as a cell
phone in a
> > collision. 60+ lb. batteries are not to be trifled with.
> >
> > Chris
> >
>
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