EV Digest 4955
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Am I Killing Batteries?
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV and Hybrid Rally around the White House this Saturday
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Data collection Re: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) EV Drag Racing Changing Minds
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Tango News ...
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Was there ever a definitive answer on the temperature dot question?
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Electric Imp info
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) PowerPoint presentations
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Electric Car Wins Infineon Performance Test. A bit confusing.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Data collection Re: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Am I Killing Batteries?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by Ken Lange <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Battery monitoring question
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Need a Used T-125 in Phoenix
by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Motor-gearbox connection problem + clutchless idea (Don?)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Am I Killing Batteries?
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Alright, I've had the Saturn running for a couple months now and I'm in the
process of getting the 2nd, maybe 3rd battery replaced already. I'm using
Twelve Trojan 30XHS batteries, which I realize aren't that great for EV use,
but I went in to it not expecting long range or huge cycle life. GEM car's use
this same battery and tend to get a good 3 years out of them. I've got my
current limit set to 500 amps, and I think the highest I've ever seen for one
split second was 400 amps, normally I never draw more than 200. Even thought
they're deep cycle they do have a CCA rating for crying out loud, which I
realize isn't a good measure but it suggests they're capable of decently high
currents.
For cycling I generally do not take them past 50%. Once I had it down to 35%,
but it was far from total battricide. I've kept them watered properly, I've
kept the terminals tightened and clean as well.
The first one died about a week in to it with a flat dead cell which didn't
have any measurable sg what so ever, so it was a pretty clear replacement call.
They said at Sunbelt they hadn't seen one do that in nearly 3 years. So I was
good for a couple months, until a few weeks ago when I noticed after a couple
miles I had no power. I stuck my volt meter to all the batteries and found one
was down around 9 volts. I tried saving it, but it didn't do much. What's wierd
is it acts perfectly normal until a certain point then it drops quickly. This
one I've already been told has several shorted cells, I droped them off for
testing yesterday. The one that was next to it in the pack was also exhibiting
similar behavior, but not nearly as bad. I am still waiting to hear if it too
is suffering from the same issue.
So thus far I've had 2 or maybe 3 batteries have to be replaced, so what am I
doing wrong here? I thought I was doing things right here. The rest of the pack
is holding up like a champ. I've confirmed with two separate sources I'm
charging properly (exactly as per Trojan's specs). I've done a couple
equalizing charges also along the way. Is it possible I just got an iffy batch
of batteries?
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:10:47 -0500, Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Calling all Electric and Hybrid Car Drivers: The Climate needs your
>help!
Hey guy, give us a humor alert before you post stuff like that,
willya? I just blew nose coffee all over my keyboard!
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 09:16:49 -0800, "Don Cameron"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>EMeter puts out an ascii, comma delimited file. Capture this in
>hyperterminal and save to a file. Open excel and open the file. Select the
>columns you want to graph, click the graph con, select line graph.
Yup, or if you're clever you can write an Excel VBscript to
automatically grab the data off the port and stick it in the
spreadsheet.
There is also a plugin out there that will do that without any
programming. I used to have it before a computer crash. Unfortunately
I can't recall where I got it. I do remember that it was free.
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:18:02 -0700 (MST), "Peter VanDerWal"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> This bears on a debate we've been having on the evtech list.
>>
>> Some say the E-meter's format (comma-delimited ASCII) is good because it
>> is easy to read and save with standard programs like Hyperterminal, and
>> it can be viewed and manipulated by Word or Excel.
>>
>> Others say this is pointless; nobody will look at the raw data. There will
>> be a dedicated program to read, save, and manipulate data. Therefore, the
>> format should be something cryptic, but compact and efficient.
>
>What would be the point in making it cryptic and compact if you're not
>going to save the raw data? Speed isn't an issue, so you might as well
>make it easy to read and manipulate, just in case someone wants to.
>
>The program that reads/manipulates the data can save it in a
>compac/cryptic format if they want too.
>
>Besides the commas can help maintain data integrity. It's easy to tell
>when you loose a bit/byte because you KNOW that a comma should be in
>position x.
Yup. That compact argument might have had some validity back in the
64kb and floppy days but it is meaningless now.
One of the foundations of Unix was that data files be human-readable
ASCII whenever possible so that mortal humans could work on and fix
files without undue pain. I couldn't count how many times I've
thanked the Unix.gods for that.
Emeter data in particular. If I've logged hours of data and want,
say, a minute's worth for a presentation, the most logical approach to
me is to bring the data file up in vi, find the part I want, cut it
and paste it into the other application. MUCH easier than wading
through screens of formatted data in Excel or whatever. The sequence
in vi for 10 minutes worth of data at 1 sample per second (600
samples) would be:
/<timestamp> ' search for the time of interest, no <>
600yy '(yank 600 lines)
:# ' go to alternate file
p ' put the 600 lines
:wq ' write and quit
All of 5 seconds worth of keystrokes done from the home row and no
silly mousing around.
To me, this is the software equivalent of the medical foundation of
"first do no harm." Perhaps an inexperienced programmer can't imagine
a use for ASCII formatted data but there is no justification for
making it harder for those who can.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BTW, speaking of E-meters & RS-232 be sure to check out Ohler's
EVDash for hooking up a Palm:
http://www.ohler.com/palm/EVDash.html
He includes the Palm source code on the downloads page:
http://www.ohler.com/downloads/
-Jerry
http://www.evconvert.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I guess I can say it now since I have plane tickets and a Itinerary...
I made the Amp head Cut for Monster Garage.
Wow.... tinsel town time... My own Star on the side walk.....
Clearly you all will need to hold the Charger and Regulator orders and
support for a week...
I will be back in my chair Monday the 12th of Dec.
This is Kinda cool for sure...
Madman does Monster Garage..
But first I need to get a cooling pump from Silverdale before the snow story
gets here. I will be at home and Manzanita Micro Until Noon Sunday..
The Weather in Seattle is getting to that rather entertaining state.... Feet
of snow in teh Mountians... a couple of Flakes here, about the New Crews are
getting dramatic...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
Madman Racing...
God I hope I don't screw up.....On TV.....again.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:36 AM 12/1/2005, you wrote:
On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 09:16:49 -0800, "Don Cameron"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>EMeter puts out an ascii, comma delimited file. Capture this in
>hyperterminal and save to a file. Open excel and open the file. Select the
>columns you want to graph, click the graph con, select line graph.
Yup, or if you're clever you can write an Excel VBscript to
automatically grab the data off the port and stick it in the
spreadsheet.
There is also a plugin out there that will do that without any
programming. I used to have it before a computer crash. Unfortunately
I can't recall where I got it. I do remember that it was free.
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Something like this.
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Others/Miscellaneous/CPS-Plus.shtml
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I received a letter from a young man today probably in high school, in my
Suck Amps mailbox. I thought I would share part of it with you all. It
really warmed my heart as I hope it will yours, knowing that what we are
doing is having an effect on younger people.
Hi, I live in Yelm, a town just south of Olympia and I saw your show in the
Discovery Channel and it really got to me. Before the show, I was only
interested in gasoline powered cars, in fact, I was interested in the worse
fuel consuming cars, muscle cars, especially Mopars. And as the idea for
more electric cars were being pushed onto the public, the more I started to
despise them, until your show came on. And the parts I did watch (I didn't
watch the whole thing, so some of my questions might have been answered on
your show) really touched me. And lately, I'm been wondering about my
career in life, and I thought that it would be great to work on and develop
cars of your caliber. Electric cars..........
........And I'm planning to be an engineer and dive further into this so my
other questions are...
What type of education did your staff and yourself receive? What do I need
to major in order to get involved with EV's?
And why is the stereo typical EV is POS (Piece of shit)? Usually when EV's
come to mind, we think of little fragile cars that have no power?
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.10/189 - Release Date: 11/30/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Someone, on another list, wrote:
"Prodrive wanted over $300,000 per car so Commutacars has bought the
tooling from them and plan to start manufacturing in the US."
Blimey!
On 12/1/05, Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> BOY ... I hope Rick or some one gets back to the NY Post, and get's them
> to print some corrections....
> Like.... The car came from Spokane Washigton
> and .... Production Models will not cost $85,000.
> and.... George LOVES his Custom Made Tango car !
>
> (I have been talking to Bill Moore of EV-World, and with all his
> connections, trying to get Bill to track down George for an INTERVIEW
> and Report on how George likes his car ..but I guess he's a pritty busy
> guy... Two movies in one year )
>
>
> Rick Woodbury said:
>
> >> I got a call from a fellow in NY yesterday who saw an article on
> George >> Clooney's Tango in the NY Post.
>
>
> I can't find the NY Post article online, but Google News dug up this one
> from UPI, posted yesterday:
>
> http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20051129-012906-5730r
>
> This is the first report I've seen of Clooney's Tango from a mainstream
> (non-EV-related) source.
>
> --chris
>
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Break a leg... :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
Well I guess I can say it now since I have plane tickets and a Itinerary...
I made the Amp head Cut for Monster Garage.
Wow.... tinsel town time... My own Star on the side walk.....
Clearly you all will need to hold the Charger and Regulator orders and
support for a week...
I will be back in my chair Monday the 12th of Dec.
This is Kinda cool for sure...
Madman does Monster Garage..
But first I need to get a cooling pump from Silverdale before the snow story
gets here. I will be at home and Manzanita Micro Until Noon Sunday..
The Weather in Seattle is getting to that rather entertaining state.... Feet
of snow in teh Mountians... a couple of Flakes here, about the New Crews are
getting dramatic...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
Madman Racing...
God I hope I don't screw up.....On TV.....again.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All my battery research says that 80 degF is the perfect "happy battery"
temperature and that for every 18 deg above 80 deg you shorten the life of
the battery by 50 percent.
Mark Grasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 11:07 AM
Subject: Was there ever a definitive answer on the temperature dot question?
That is, if one were to affix non-reversable temperature dots to battery
terminals, what would be "too warm" of a temperature?
From reading the posts, and common sense, it seems that a temperature
that's a little above the maximum ambient in your area would be
appropriate. Maybe 125°?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Too awesome for words, thanks for posting the data and videos! 25 of
130 is a good showing.
I was most impressed you projected you could do 10 laps at full
power! A lead acid car would be lucky to do a 2nd lap!
On the acceleration thing: Did it only occur under braking? Maybe
something with the brakelight circuit, or something shifting forward
under the braking force, caused the problem.
Did fighting the acceleration problem cook your brakes?
--- ProEV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> We added two race reports to www.ProEV.com last week. One is from
> our May 15
> autocross with video, pictures and graphs. The other is from our
> first road
> race at the Homestead-Miami Speedway. We had some problems with a
> weird
> unintended acceleration glitch. Any opinions would be appreciated.
> http://www.proev.com/P1RaceH.htm
> ...
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Rich, give us details. What controller are you going to run? What motor
or motors? What batteries? How many volts? What rear end? What tranny? You
know, all the important stuff.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
Well I guess I can say it now since I have plane tickets and a
Itinerary...
I made the Amp head Cut for Monster Garage.
Wow.... tinsel town time... My own Star on the side walk.....
Clearly you all will need to hold the Charger and Regulator orders and
support for a week...
I will be back in my chair Monday the 12th of Dec.
This is Kinda cool for sure...
Madman does Monster Garage..
But first I need to get a cooling pump from Silverdale before the snow
story
gets here. I will be at home and Manzanita Micro Until Noon Sunday..
The Weather in Seattle is getting to that rather entertaining state....
Feet
of snow in teh Mountians... a couple of Flakes here, about the New Crews
are
getting dramatic...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
Madman Racing...
God I hope I don't screw up.....On TV.....again.....
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.10/189 - Release Date:
11/30/2005
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.10/189 - Release Date: 11/30/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all, I have committed VEVA to a presentation next week BC Sustainable
Energy Association. I may have (meaning I've committed and no one else has
put up their hand) to do it myself and I am looking for resources. I found
Bob Bath's PowerPoint presentation which has some good talking points but I
think there was another one that was a bit more general. If it's available
and someone could point me to it or any other useful resources that would be
great.
Thanks, Lawrence Harris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From:
http://www.kron.com/Global/story.asp?S=4122234
Electric Car Wins Infineon Performance Test
November 15, 2005
SONOMA (KRON) -- Most people think of electric cars as slow, ponderous
things that you're lucky to do 35 mph in. Don't tell that to one man whose
purely electric car outraced a Ferrari and Porsche at Infineon Raceway.
Ian Wright recently put his electric powered "Wrightspeed X-1" to the test
at the same raceway where the rubber burns for NASCAR competitions. Wright
says he believes eventually drivers will choose electric cars even over
hybrids.
"If you measure the energy required to drive a mile and compare that to the
energy use by the (Toyota) Prius, it's about three times better," Wright
told KRON 4's Will Nordby.
Wright concedes purely electric vehicles have drawbacks including a maximum
range of 150 miles between charging. Batteries are expensive, but Wright
says the benefits offset the limitations for some drivers.
"I've chosen to optimize the car for performance and sell it into the
performance market," Wright said. "Technology will get a lot cheaper, of
course, with time and practice and volume. And it will trickle down to much
less expensive cars. This is a proof of concept car, not a production car."
Wright competed in a race with $170,000 Ferrari and a $400,000 Porsche.
Wright's X-1 cost $150,000 and beat the other two, reaching 112 mph in just
11.1 seconds.
(Copyright 2005, KRON 4. All rights reserved.)
KRON 4
1001 Van Ness Avenue
San Francisco, CA 94109
(415) 441-4444
From:
http://forum.softpedia.com/index.php?showtopic=91151
San Francisco TV station KRON 4 has a video that rates as a must-see for all
you alternative fuel, performance car types. The video clip features a
recent drag race at Infineon Raceway between the all-electric Wrightspeed
X-1, a Ferrari 360 and a Porsche Carrera GT.
The minimalist X-1 is the product of Wrightspeed, Inc., Ian Wright's Silicon
Valley startup "using clean technology to make very energy efficient cars
that are also very fast." The X-1 prototype is a U.K.-built Ariel Atom
(pictured), modified to use an electric power system from AC Propulsion
instead of the Ariel's Honda iVTEC 4-cylinder powerplant.
While the X-1's performance is nowhere near the dino-fueled Atom's (0-100
mph in 6.86 seconds!), it was more than enough to leave the supercars in its
dust.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2005-12-01, Neon John wrote:
>
> One of the foundations of Unix was that data files be human-readable
> ASCII whenever possible so that mortal humans could work on and fix
> files without undue pain. I couldn't count how many times I've
> thanked the Unix.gods for that.
Absolutely. XML is, in my opinion, and this is not the right place
for a debate on this, often a step backwards in this regard.
> Emeter data in particular. If I've logged hours of data and want,
> say, a minute's worth for a presentation, the most logical approach to
> me is to bring the data file up in vi, find the part I want, cut it
> and paste it into the other application.
Noooo! Not minimalist enough!
grep -A 599 $TIMESTAMP < $LOGFILE > $NEWFILE
:-). (Which grabs lines matching $TIMESTAMP and prints them, and the
599 lines following them. You'll need to zero-pad the timestamp so
it doesn't match in multiple places.)
Y'see, the _other_ truly great innovation of Unix is pipes.
The other other one is probably "everything is a file".
-----sharks :-) :-) :-) <--- smileys recognizing that whatever works
best for you is in fact the right way for you to do it!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ricky,
It could be that your batteries where of different manufacturer dates, and or
out of balance in voltage and specific gravity when you install them. This is
what happen to me with US batteries over 20 years ago. I order 30 batteries
from a local dealer. They order them from a distributor, which slip in 10
batteries that I found out was over a year old setting on a shelf not have
maintainers on them. Blew three of them just when I started up the EV.
I made them replace them because they did not come up with the load rating,
specific gravity and standing voltage at no load which did not match the other
20 batteries in with 0.01 volt of each other.
To check for the date, they are either stamp on the plastic top next to the
post or on top of the post pad on offset post connecters. My Trojans are mark
with F 2 on the lead pad, which means June 2002. Dealers will try to sell
there old stock and make up the rest with new batteries.
I specified that the date shall be not more than 2 weeks old from date of
manufacture, which means that they must ship them right from the manufacturer
to you. Also specified that the voltage shall not be more than 0.01 volt of
each other and the standing voltage shall be not less than 6.33 volts per 6
volt battery.
Load testing will vary with different load testing equipment. I used a 75 amp
load that must at least hold that amperes for 1 minute. This is closer to a EV
usage.
Trojan company does not do all these test, so I had them ship me 50 batteries
which is a pallet load. The remaining 20 will go to the local dealer after I
test the best 30 batteries I want.
After about a month of usage, I had one post snap off, because it could not
take the recommended torque that Trojan recommended. So I traded the local
dealer with the same date from one of the twenty batteries that match my 30
batteries.
Another thing you have to watch for while discharging and charging, is never to
add water to the cells while they are discharge, except if the electrolyte
level is below the cell grids at discharge. Then add just enough water to get
about 1/4 above the grids.
What happens in a high amp hour battery, is that when the battery discharges,
the electrolyte goes down, and when charge, it goes up. So if you added any
water to the fill neck while it is discharge, you have diluted the acid. A
ratio of water which is 1.00 SG and Acid which is 1.800 SG which is mixed
together results in a SG of 1.265 to 1.275. If you add too much water, then
the SG becomes lower right from the start.
If all cells read about 1.265 to 1.275 SG and it finish charge, and you are
still low, than just add water to bring the level with 1/4 inch of the bottom
of the fill neck. If the specific gravity is lower than this after charging,
it may that the electrolyte is diluted or all the acid deep inside the grids
have not come to the surface or still somewhat sulfated.
You can either do a balance charge of these battery which would require to hold
the voltage at about 7.78 volts bubbling the batteries. This either releases
the sulfate and/or boil off the excise water to increase the SG.
Or, if you find you have just diluted the electrolyte with to much water, I
have added a drop or two of 1.800 sulfuric acid after the battery is normal
charge so I don't have to try to boil off the water.
If you tried to boil off the excise water in the electrolyte, make sure you
have plenty of ventilation and no spark producing devices. DO NOT TURN OFF THE
CHARGER IN THE SAME ATMOSPHERE OF THE CHARGING BATTERY. If you can, just turn
down the current and let it ventilated for a hour before turning off the
charger. I blew up a battery by just turning off the charger breaker.
All my Trojans T-145's with heavy duty custom made post, are perfect after 3.5
years. The voltage difference I just read last week is in with 0.02 volts of
each other. I only water them every 4 or 6 months at end of a balance charge.
If you tried to read the SG just after you water the batteries, you will
normally read a low specific gravity, because the water is on top of the heaver
acid that normally goes to the bottom. You will not get a good mix until you
discharge and charged the batteries.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Ricky Suiter<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EV List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:30 AM
Subject: Am I Killing Batteries?
Alright, I've had the Saturn running for a couple months now and I'm in the
process of getting the 2nd, maybe 3rd battery replaced already. I'm using
Twelve Trojan 30XHS batteries, which I realize aren't that great for EV use,
but I went in to it not expecting long range or huge cycle life. GEM car's use
this same battery and tend to get a good 3 years out of them. I've got my
current limit set to 500 amps, and I think the highest I've ever seen for one
split second was 400 amps, normally I never draw more than 200. Even thought
they're deep cycle they do have a CCA rating for crying out loud, which I
realize isn't a good measure but it suggests they're capable of decently high
currents.
For cycling I generally do not take them past 50%. Once I had it down to
35%, but it was far from total battricide. I've kept them watered properly,
I've kept the terminals tightened and clean as well.
The first one died about a week in to it with a flat dead cell which didn't
have any measurable sg what so ever, so it was a pretty clear replacement call.
They said at Sunbelt they hadn't seen one do that in nearly 3 years. So I was
good for a couple months, until a few weeks ago when I noticed after a couple
miles I had no power. I stuck my volt meter to all the batteries and found one
was down around 9 volts. I tried saving it, but it didn't do much. What's wierd
is it acts perfectly normal until a certain point then it drops quickly. This
one I've already been told has several shorted cells, I droped them off for
testing yesterday. The one that was next to it in the pack was also exhibiting
similar behavior, but not nearly as bad. I am still waiting to hear if it too
is suffering from the same issue.
So thus far I've had 2 or maybe 3 batteries have to be replaced, so what am
I doing wrong here? I thought I was doing things right here. The rest of the
pack is holding up like a champ. I've confirmed with two separate sources I'm
charging properly (exactly as per Trojan's specs). I've done a couple
equalizing charges also along the way. Is it possible I just got an iffy batch
of batteries?
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From Lee:
> What are people's thoughts? Would you prefer a generic format for a "data
> output" from EV accessories like the E-meter, chargers, controllers,
battery
> monitors, etc? Or, would you prefer to have special application programs to
> read the data (which presumably you'd pay extra for)?
For those of us that are not diehard programmers, it's really nice to be able
to do what Don Cameron described (and I do exactly what he described).
ASCII CSV is so widespread that almost any serious program that imports
generic data will accept CSV. That makes a common format much more
widely useful than something that requires a special program which cannot
hope to cover everything that people will want to do. For me, (reasonable)
cost is not the issue, although it might be for some.
It's convenience with versatility that counts.
My vote is for ASCII comma delimited.
Ken
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--- Begin Message ---
> Fun! Is that a part with dual USARTs or did you bit bang one of them?
It has 1 EUSART (Enhanced: auto-wake-up on character reception,
auto-baud calibration, idle detection, 12bit mode), 1 (master or
slave)I2C/SPI, and one that can be either... I have it setup right now
as 2 RS232 (with a maxim 2332) and 1 I2C (since I2C is a local bus, why
need two?)
I know, overkill, but for just under $8 a chip, it's nice to have it in
case you laster need it ;)
--
Stefan T. Peters
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--- Begin Message ---
<<<<Well I guess I can say it now since I have plane tickets and a Itinerary...
I made the Amp head Cut for Monster Garage.
Wow.... tinsel town time... My own Star on the side walk.....>>>>
Please tell me you'll be bringing the 2x4!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11/19/05, Myles Twete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> This September there was a Monster Garage episode where a team was slated
> to
> build a steamboat out of a 1950's era Chris Craft runabout. One of our
> more
> noted NW steamboaters (and machinist) joined the team.
> The show wasn't about performance, but more about crafting something kind
> of
> amazing and out of the ordinary---a frickin' steamboat---and of course, it
> had to have a killer paint job. In the end, there was a race, late
> September in the Sacramento Delta at the annual steamboat meet there.
> Jesse's monster steamboat took 2nd place in the race. It looked like he
> had
> lot of fun on that project despite the low HP and slow speeds.
>
I saw that one, too. JJ had a real thing for steam engines when he was a
kid, though (apparently he took a torch to the boiler of one until it
over-rev'd and died :) ). Jessie's interest, or lack there-of, can sure kill
a project on that show. Anyone remember the "flying" Delorian?
-Mike
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--- Begin Message ---
Congratulations Rich! :^D
Ya better get on the old treadmill and eat your veggies, I hear these builds
can take quite a toll on you physically.
Got some more details about the build?
Have fun and don't screw it up :^D
Roy
Madman wrote:
Well I guess I can say it now since I have plane tickets and a
Itinerary...
I made the Amp head Cut for Monster Garage.
Wow.... tinsel town time... My own Star on the side walk.....
Clearly you all will need to hold the Charger and Regulator orders and
support for a week...
I will be back in my chair Monday the 12th of Dec.
This is Kinda cool for sure...
Madman does Monster Garage..
But first I need to get a cooling pump from Silverdale before the snow
story
gets here. I will be at home and Manzanita Micro Until Noon Sunday..
The Weather in Seattle is getting to that rather entertaining state....
Feet
of snow in teh Mountians... a couple of Flakes here, about the New Crews
are
getting dramatic...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
Madman Racing...
God I hope I don't screw up.....On TV.....again.....
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
My aging battery pack has one weak battery. My usual source of used
Trojan T-125s has none. I use automotive type connectors and I would
prefer a used Trojan to best match the rest of the pack, but I'm OK with
a different brand as long as it is a similar battery.
Clearly it isn't worth shipping a used battery, but I can do a pick up
anywhere in the Phoenix area. Does anyone have a spare?
Thanks,
Mike
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--- Begin Message ---
No this isn't stock item (how many people do you think
convert Insights with Siemens 5105 motors??)
The machine shop which made this adapter did the measurements -
we brought the motor and transmission to them for couple of days.
So it was one off part and some special tools had top be
ordered to make it.
Gary can tell you more about it.
Victor
Richard Bebbington wrote:
Hi Victor,
If you want to go clutchless, so as we did for Gary
Graunke's Insight: he uses similar 5105WS12 motor
with involuted spline as well:
http://www.metricmind.com/images/5105shaft.jpg
So I came up with coupler for his transmission:
Drawing
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/insight_coupler.gif
Do you have any of these couplers available as a stock item?
I have a 5105WS12 motor here, and haven't got around to building
it into a project yet, partly because of the difficulty of
getting the exact dimensions of the DIN splines
( I found some info on the Net, but would need full dimensions
to be able to model the part in Solidworks, to then give our
friendly machinist the data for his CNC machine... )
I'd be particularily interested in a version that could
couple the Siemens motor inline onto a Netgain Warp8 or 9 's
auxilliary shaft ( 0.875 inches dia with keyway )....
.... yes it's another of my weird ideas, for a dual-motor AC/DC Supra!
I guess the internally splined part (intended for coupling onto the
transmission
input shaft) could be bored out to suit?
Thanks,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fantastic, Just what I was looking for.
Thank you
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Chancey
Sent: 01 December 2005 23:08
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
Robert Chew wrote:
>HI Mike,
>
>I am interested in your data logging program. Mind sharing it. Or
explaining
>how to program something to datalog on either a palm pilot or laptop.
>
>Cheers
Actually, Tim Nolan's article explains it far better than I ever
could. He also has a couple of small programs to parse the data and
add a time stamp. The article is available as a downloadable PDF at:
http://www.timnolan.com/hparticle/Nolan74.pdf
and includes links to the programs. I haven't used them yet, I just
used the HyperTerminal program that comes with Windows.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think it has anything to do with watering. I've only added water to the
pack once thus far, and they are no where near being below the plates. As far
as all the maintenance stuff I know all that by now. I started out with my High
School EV team several years back where I learned just how to destroy a
battery. I had EV training wheels for almost 2 years before this with a GEM
with flooded batteries. I just sent that down the road (sold) and it's
batteries were still doing great after 2 years.
The issue here is that one most recent failure was due to several cells
developing shorts internally, or so I've been told thus far. The battery next
to it in the string was showing similar behavior though not nearly as bad. I'm
thinking maybe the bad one was dragging it through the mud with it. I'm still
waiting to hear back from Sunbelt.
As far as manufacture date I checked them all as I loaded them, they were all
the same date code. They even brought a pallet of them over and they all came
off the same level of the pallet even. So is it just going to be a faulty
battery that develops internal shorts?
Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello Ricky,
It could be that your batteries where of different manufacturer dates, and or
out of balance in voltage and specific gravity when you install them. This is
what happen to me with US batteries over 20 years ago. I order 30 batteries
from a local dealer. They order them from a distributor, which slip in 10
batteries that I found out was over a year old setting on a shelf not have
maintainers on them. Blew three of them just when I started up the EV.
I made them replace them because they did not come up with the load rating,
specific gravity and standing voltage at no load which did not match the other
20 batteries in with 0.01 volt of each other.
To check for the date, they are either stamp on the plastic top next to the
post or on top of the post pad on offset post connecters. My Trojans are mark
with F 2 on the lead pad, which means June 2002. Dealers will try to sell there
old stock and make up the rest with new batteries.
I specified that the date shall be not more than 2 weeks old from date of
manufacture, which means that they must ship them right from the manufacturer
to you. Also specified that the voltage shall not be more than 0.01 volt of
each other and the standing voltage shall be not less than 6.33 volts per 6
volt battery.
Load testing will vary with different load testing equipment. I used a 75 amp
load that must at least hold that amperes for 1 minute. This is closer to a EV
usage.
Trojan company does not do all these test, so I had them ship me 50 batteries
which is a pallet load. The remaining 20 will go to the local dealer after I
test the best 30 batteries I want.
After about a month of usage, I had one post snap off, because it could not
take the recommended torque that Trojan recommended. So I traded the local
dealer with the same date from one of the twenty batteries that match my 30
batteries.
Another thing you have to watch for while discharging and charging, is never to
add water to the cells while they are discharge, except if the electrolyte
level is below the cell grids at discharge. Then add just enough water to get
about 1/4 above the grids.
What happens in a high amp hour battery, is that when the battery discharges,
the electrolyte goes down, and when charge, it goes up. So if you added any
water to the fill neck while it is discharge, you have diluted the acid. A
ratio of water which is 1.00 SG and Acid which is 1.800 SG which is mixed
together results in a SG of 1.265 to 1.275. If you add too much water, then the
SG becomes lower right from the start.
If all cells read about 1.265 to 1.275 SG and it finish charge, and you are
still low, than just add water to bring the level with 1/4 inch of the bottom
of the fill neck. If the specific gravity is lower than this after charging, it
may that the electrolyte is diluted or all the acid deep inside the grids have
not come to the surface or still somewhat sulfated.
You can either do a balance charge of these battery which would require to hold
the voltage at about 7.78 volts bubbling the batteries. This either releases
the sulfate and/or boil off the excise water to increase the SG.
Or, if you find you have just diluted the electrolyte with to much water, I
have added a drop or two of 1.800 sulfuric acid after the battery is normal
charge so I don't have to try to boil off the water.
If you tried to boil off the excise water in the electrolyte, make sure you
have plenty of ventilation and no spark producing devices. DO NOT TURN OFF THE
CHARGER IN THE SAME ATMOSPHERE OF THE CHARGING BATTERY. If you can, just turn
down the current and let it ventilated for a hour before turning off the
charger. I blew up a battery by just turning off the charger breaker.
All my Trojans T-145's with heavy duty custom made post, are perfect after 3.5
years. The voltage difference I just read last week is in with 0.02 volts of
each other. I only water them every 4 or 6 months at end of a balance charge.
If you tried to read the SG just after you water the batteries, you will
normally read a low specific gravity, because the water is on top of the heaver
acid that normally goes to the bottom. You will not get a good mix until you
discharge and charged the batteries.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Ricky Suiter
To: EV List
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:30 AM
Subject: Am I Killing Batteries?
Alright, I've had the Saturn running for a couple months now and I'm in the
process of getting the 2nd, maybe 3rd battery replaced already. I'm using
Twelve Trojan 30XHS batteries, which I realize aren't that great for EV use,
but I went in to it not expecting long range or huge cycle life. GEM car's use
this same battery and tend to get a good 3 years out of them. I've got my
current limit set to 500 amps, and I think the highest I've ever seen for one
split second was 400 amps, normally I never draw more than 200. Even thought
they're deep cycle they do have a CCA rating for crying out loud, which I
realize isn't a good measure but it suggests they're capable of decently high
currents.
For cycling I generally do not take them past 50%. Once I had it down to 35%,
but it was far from total battricide. I've kept them watered properly, I've
kept the terminals tightened and clean as well.
The first one died about a week in to it with a flat dead cell which didn't
have any measurable sg what so ever, so it was a pretty clear replacement call.
They said at Sunbelt they hadn't seen one do that in nearly 3 years. So I was
good for a couple months, until a few weeks ago when I noticed after a couple
miles I had no power. I stuck my volt meter to all the batteries and found one
was down around 9 volts. I tried saving it, but it didn't do much. What's wierd
is it acts perfectly normal until a certain point then it drops quickly. This
one I've already been told has several shorted cells, I droped them off for
testing yesterday. The one that was next to it in the pack was also exhibiting
similar behavior, but not nearly as bad. I am still waiting to hear if it too
is suffering from the same issue.
So thus far I've had 2 or maybe 3 batteries have to be replaced, so what am I
doing wrong here? I thought I was doing things right here. The rest of the pack
is holding up like a champ. I've confirmed with two separate sources I'm
charging properly (exactly as per Trojan's specs). I've done a couple
equalizing charges also along the way. Is it possible I just got an iffy batch
of batteries?
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
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Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less
--- End Message ---
