EV Digest 4982
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Open source car development?
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Dump Charging
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EV crashes Corvette Challenge party at Moroso!
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: MG Update
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) EV TV coverage, Re: Open source car development?Comments
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Smart Chargers, was - Re: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Smart Chargers, was - Re: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Setting up a Direct Drive, Comments
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV crashes Corvette Challenge party at Moroso!
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Controller Selection (was Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV crashes Corvette Challenge party at Moroso!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Stefan Peters wrote:
> Lightning Ryan wrote:
>
>> Anyway, I'm in, I can administer/moderate, maybe write new
>> mediawiki modules (need to do a maillist archive module) etc...
>> See http://www.seattleeva.org for the v1.3 mediawiki SEVA site.
>> A "closed" version running 1.4 can be seen ( for a few days ) at
>> http://207.175.61.212 we've added nested menus, no editing...
>>
>
> Ok, that's one down. What software packages (specifics help) are you
> looking for on the server? Apache 2.0.54/Bind 9 (yes, "it's a good
> thing" to do your own DNS) is a given. I'm looking around for a easy
> to use site-builder setup for the project pages. The idea is that the
> average tinker could create and maintain their own project site in
> their spare time. Suggestions? I can have *something* up for ppl to
> play around with (kick the tires) later this week.
>
> Any more moderators? It will definitely need some ongoing website work
> guys... and no dreamweaver... it's also "a good thing" to stay
> open-source with the tools.
Linux/BSD, I'm not picky. Bash, joe the editor (please), lynx the text
based browser (handy), MySQL, Apache, webalizer stats reporting,
sendmail/postfix, bind is good ( I agree, do our own dns ), a compiler
is always good, all the standard stuff... Everything but the GUI.
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki
Lately I'm a real big fan of mediawiki, good or bad I like to think it
could be used for many of the parts of such a site. Unlike the real
sourceforge I don't imagine we really need a software version control
and distribution system for the users and projects.
I'm thinking that the front end could be a locked down wiki with strict
user creation by administrators. Users have their own user pages for
their projects, and a talk page for "chatting" and carrying on and such,
sub-domains could point to these projects/user pages. There would also
be a "Wiki" area which would be an entirely open sort of development
area where articles could be developed by anyone, once matured they
might go to the closed "Static" site where they could still be developed
but only by members with accounts. I'm not sure yet how well the two
could be merged, One would require a lot more moderation than the other
though...
Realtime chat would be nice, IRC, any ideas on a nice integrated IRC web
client?
Do we need/want to make real user accounts and email addresses
available? Would anyone want or need a [EMAIL PROTECTED] address? I
would imagine that most will still just want to use the EVDL and their
own e-mail, so I'm thinking not so much on the email, to begin with
anyway, except for admins/moderators.
L8r
Ryan
ps. I'd hate to start yet another site that won't get any use, so
I'm wondering how we might merge with some of the existing projects.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is a 1,2 MW (continous) motor for testing. Inverter takes 600 VDC in.
3 phase out.
This "Darth Vader" 800 kg EP100 can deliver over 1 Mw for brief moment :)
I wish I would have a photo of it when it sits indark room... humming
and blinking 350 SMT leds in side... It puts fear in you...
For me it is like a child of mine.
Waiting to be able to mount one of its sisters in my future EV
projects... with latest BMS...
About dump charging:
When a charging station is sitting on grid it does not only serve EVs.
It also balances load on grid and acts as part of it. Grid companies can
still serve their customers with normal electricity for hour or two if
grid fails. Now they are paying penalties for blackouts and that IS
expencive.
So basicly there could be a fast charging station in every grid cross
section. Funded by grid companies.
In here (but no iglus and polar bears) snow might come in a day with
force of 2-3 feet. If it snows while over 0 celsius its heavy. And if it
freezes immedately ther are heavy loads on trees and powerlines.
Blackouts will occur and reparing the damages every year in haste...
waste of money.
With good energy buffer repairing can be done in few days not in hours.
-Jukka
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Jukka Järvinen wrote:
see www.fevt.com/images/EP100.jpg
Is it just my eyes or is there a REALLY big motor in that pic? Why is
it in there and what do you attach to the end of it?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey everyone,
This update on the Nissan is way overdue, but describing its performance at
last night's Corvette Challenge at Moroso Motorsports Park seems like a good
opportunity to fill you all in. First, though, a little background:
I've been driving the 240SX around town for the last month or so. It had
been running at 192V for the first three weeks, with the current and motor
voltage settings pretty low (you know--around 1000 amps and 150V to the
motors). Last week, though, I got nine more Exide Orbitals and enough Regs
to finally cover each of the 25 batteries. With a grand total of about 4
miles use on these last nine batteries, I felt they had more than enough
break-in time to take the car to the track!
Shawn Waggoner has been in close touch with all the track managers there at
Moroso for the upcoming Battery Beach Burnout, so earlier last week, he
called up the tech inspector, Gary, to see if we could take the car there
for test and tune. Gary says, "No problem, bring it over on Saturday night
during Corvette Challenge and I'll hold them all off when you want to make a
few runs down the track." Man, if that's not accommodating, I don't know
what is. These guys at Moroso are thrilled to have EVs at the track and
they're doing everything they can to make it easy on us.
So Saturday around noon, Shawn shows up with the trailer and we get to work
on a few little details. Hook up reverse lights, raise that pesky passenger
power window that's just not cooperating, get some decals on the rear
window, and give her a nice fill up with the PFC-20. By 4:30 PM, we had the
240 loaded up on the trailer, right behind Shawn's X-Terra, to complete the
1-2 Nissan punch.
We get to the track around 5:30 or so and give Gary a call. "Pull right on
up to the gate and I'll meet you there," he says. At the ticket booth at the
gate, the lady says, "One driving and one watching: 28 bucks." Gary pulls up
in his cart and sets 'em straight, though, and they waive the admission fee
for us. Nice! We drive on in to the pit area and pull the 240 off the
trailer. We head straight over to the tech area and go over the car in
detail with Gary and a couple other inspectors. The more they get into it,
the more they're just shaking their heads in disbelief. And by this time,
we've got a crowd of racers around us with questions coming like crazy.
Shawn and I took our time answering the inspectors' and racers' questions,
and made sure to let them all know that the first run or two would be WAAAAY
turned down on power, just to make sure we got some good test time with it
before something let loose. I was conservatively telling people that it
might run a 16 second quarter mile, but that eventually they'd see much
better than that. You could see that they were loving it, and were really
excited to see what this EV could do!
Next, we bring the car back over to the pits and set up the laptop and my
Gtech Pro meter. I set the battery current limit to 1200 amps, motor current
to 1200 amps and (series) motor voltage to 320 volts. Parallel motor current
is 2000 amps and parallel voltage is 160. Before I know it, we're pulling up
to the front of one of the empty lanes and they just wave me right in! I
figured I'd have at least a minute or two to set up the data acquisition! I
had already set up Hyperterm to capture the text to a data file, but at this
point, it was dark enough that I could hardly even see the keyboard to start
the hairball spitting out data. I pull forward, thinking I just wasn't going
to get that critical run data. Just as I'm staging, though, I tell myself
there's plenty of time for me to lean over, type "p" and then "Q4" to start
the data stream. . . there! I did it! . . .just in time to look over and see
the christmas tree light sitting on GREEN!
My foot comes down hard on the accelerator. Amazingly, the little 205/60-15
street tires manage to bite on the track and the car hurtles forward! After
a split second, the car lurches, and immediately I figure I lost the
driveshaft or at least a shaft key. But no! The car continues to pull hard
all the way down the track. It's going much faster than I had ever taken the
car on the street, but on the silky smooth track, there's none of the
vibration that I used to attribute to my home-made angle iron dual motor
mount, or perhaps bad alignment of the motors with the differential. She
pulls hard through the quarter mile, and I begin the long coast-down and
then turn around to pick up my time slip.
The guy handing out the slip is incredulous. "You ran a 14.27 with an
ELECTRIC CAR??" Big smile on my face, now: "Yes, I guess I did!" I hit 95.06
mph through the traps, and to top it off, the 14.274 included a 1.053 second
reaction time from when I was playing with the laptop! We couldn't have been
more thrilled. It could have easily been a 13.5 run for its first time ever
on the track, but I was happy to have the data. (Yeah, keep telling yourself
that, Matt) Plus, I figured there'd be plenty of runs later in the night to
improve on the time.
In the end, though, I was never able to get the tires to hook up again,
especially after bumping up the current to *only* 1400 motor amps. With the
stock Nissan R200 differential, I peg-legged it down the track on runs 2 and
3. Run 4 was my best launch, but the lack of an appropriately sized
generator, not enough time for charging, and the use of precious power for
my only burnout of the night ended up giving me a disappointing 82 mph
through the traps.
I'm very excited to have the Hairball data from the first run, and some
Gtech Pro data from my last run. The motors saw a high speed of 5800 RPM on
the 95 mph run. I noticed that I was only in series mode for the first
three-tenths of a second before it switched to parallel. That was the lurch
I felt at the beginning. Basically the first three data points were 1250
amps, 1000 amps and 750 amps. Then a brief switch to parallel and the full
2000 amps came in.
On the slower fourth run, the data from the Gtech was pretty interesting,
too. It shows 190 HP and 650 ft-lbs of torque at their peaks. It's all very
encouraging, since I know there's a solid second I can take off the time,
just by paying attention to the lights. I have a planned upgrade to the
Nissan R200V, the viscous limited slip differential, which Lowell Simmons
and I just pulled out of his 300ZX. Some wider Nitto or Mickey Thompson drag
radials are in store for the larger 16", five-lug wheels from the 300ZX,
too. And I still haven't tapped out the Z2K as far as series motor current
and motor voltage. Should make for a good showing at the Battery Beach
Burnout!
The whole night couldn't have been much better (please don't bring up the
reaction time, though--it's really starting to bother me now!) I can't
stress enough how great the folks at Moroso have been. Shawn spent some time
up with the announcers, and they were all too happy to spread the word over
the loudspeaker about "the black Nissan electric car" and the upcoming event
in January. Gary was all smiles at the end of the night, and mentioned how
everyone -- racers and staff, alike -- couldn't stop talking about the car.
I've been calling the 240SX "Joule Injected", and you'll be able to check
out the updates at http://www.jouleinjected.com
<http://www.jouleinjected.com> once I finally get around to posting more
pics up there. So far, there's only a test image of the contactor setup and
a proud Z2K on the firewall, but I've got a library of about 200 pics ready
to upload. Check it out later this week!
Matt Graham
300V Nissan 240SX "Joule Injected"
Hobe Sound, FL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Congratulations Rich and Shawn!
I knew you all could do it despite the insurmountable odds, but it
sounded a bit more intense they I could ever image. It was pretty cool
to hear Shawn say the car was doing burnouts in the garage.
You all definitely deserved those tools and then some.
Just hope Jesse doesn't go crazy and blow the thing up (literally),
being the last show in MG history.
But ending monster garage with an EV project is great for Amp Heads and
the EV movement. This will definitely have a positive impact. I can't
wait to see it.
Way to go!
Maybe the car could make some guest appearances at some future NEDRA
events.
Chip
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:10:10 PM US/Eastern
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: MG Update
Like Now.. I just have to be a bit vauge on some details...
We are not sure what Jesse thought.....
Clearly... I am dumping on the list...as much as I dare.
And with the Abuse, and the fact that this is the last Monster Garage
Ever... I really don't give a damn.
So ask... once I cool down... I do need to keep some drama for the
showing.
There was no lack of drama. The Camera Crews didn't need to add a thing
we
made our own.
Those Ba--ards...
Sorry listers..... polite adjectives... just don't convey what they did
to
us...
Madman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don and All,
"Don B. Davidson III" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Bob brings up a good point. I am an engineer for a local Central NY NBC
Broadcast Television facility. As far as the NBC programming is concerned,
promotion and publicity are key in it having high ratings. With NBC
programming in particular, even if the program is horrible, if you promote
it properly, you will get high initial ratings. Promote the product
successfully and give the product lots of exposure and the product will
become popular.
I've been trying to figure out how I might utilize my position at this
facility to popularize or promote the EV cause. Any suggestions?
I'd think a good evening news spot, or better, a Dateline 15
minutes segment on the Battery Beach Burnout Jan 21 would be about the best bet
for now as it's looking to be a good size gathering with lots of different
EV's. With our energy problems, it would be a good way to disspell the EV's are
dead myths and show that they are a viable product.
A good overall look at the EV story could even make a good documentry
from Jay Leno's 110 mile range Baker Electric on it's original batteries still
in it to put the lie to GM's crushing of the EV-1 saying they are not
practical and all that inbetween. So many good conflicts, story lines, lies to
be exploited, exposed. And good proomotion with these conflicts will be easy.
The combo of daily drivers, drag racers, conversions and production
EV's at the BBB will give a broad range of insight into them.
Interest will be fairly high due to the EV Confidential documentry,
Syriana movie coming out about then and also because of the hard winter it
looks like, gas, diesel prices will be rising as they have start to this week
again and will continue until the spring.
If you heat on oil, buy as much as you can this week as it's about
to go back up $.20-30/gal by the end of the week as the price follows the spot
market by 3 weeks which was about 10 days ago when the price of oil hit $60
range again..
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
Don Davidson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the problem with the smart chargers is they just have one charging
algorythm for any type of battery you hook it up to. So these chargers need to
charge flooded, gel or AGM batteries. So the problem becomes do they set the
curve for flooded batteries and cook gel's to an early death? No the buyer
wouldn't be happy because his battery would die real quick. So they settle on
the most gentle curve that can charge anything, but does not charge properly. I
have a few of these chargers and they work ok, but they're not 100%. The one
thing I like is the particular ones I have won't overcharge and will
automatically resart on their own so they can also double as a maintanier.
I've found being able to manually change these little parameters is a huge
benefit, which I'm just now starting to really realize and appreciate.
BTW, after those two bad batteries were replaced the car's running great. I
made some slight changes to the charge settings, but judging by the sg and
voltages I'm seeing both before and now I don't think I was undercharging by
any means.
Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Let me see, The 12 volt battery coming in from a temperature of 5 below is
been cold soaking down to 30 degrees. This time I install the smart charger on
board, but when I drove the EV into a warm building, and try to charge the
battery, the smart charger was warm up to 60 degrees and only charge the
battery for only 5 minutes. The SG was still at 1.225 SG. Letting the battery
warm up to 60 degrees and try again, the smart charger would not charge it.
I then switch over to the PFC-50B and adjust the max voltage to 15.2 volts at
40 amps for a battery setting at 60 degrees. The battery then charge up to
1.265 SG! in less than a hour with the ampere taper down to below 4 amp. This
is not overcharging it, because the battery temperature never went above 70
degrees. I exchange the smart charger for another one, but it did the same
thing after I did more runs with the EV.
I left the smart charger on continuous for over 24 hour, but the next day, the
battery percentage was still at 55 percent and barely had 10 volts when I apply
a 20 amp startup load.
I than crank up my onboard alternator regulator voltage to 14.5 volts which was
setting at 13.5 volts. Adjusted the idle control, so the alternator is now
charging full time, instead of just when the motor speed is over 500 RPM. Now I
can make a week of EV runs and the battery is now at 100 percent charge.
So there is nothing wrong with the battery or charging it with the PFC-50B or
alternator. But there is something wrong with the design of these Smart
Chargers.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Rudman
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
Roger You twit. ( I could use stronger words...but this is a familly list)
The bare bones fact that you CAN adjust our dumb as a Rock charger.....
Is a Feature worth having... and a LOT of folks can operate a
screwdriver....
Most smart chargers... are so damn Smart the adjust features are absent..
leaving the operator at the mercy of
the really smart fools that think they have it all figured out.
This is a mistake.
Since the charger desinger can't possibly know all the enviromental, cycle
life and state of charge data points for every battery type.
So... For Roland and most of this EV list... having a charger that CAN BE
ADJUSTED... is a better solution than thousands of lines of code, that may
not
have anything to do with the actual problem the battery is suffering from.
I am getting tired of getting hammered from not having a "Intellegent
charger". I could have one in days if I wanted to. And Most of you know
it...
This Home Buildt EV customer Base needs flexabiltiy... and POWER.
The OEM base needs turn key chargers... and can live with destroying battery
packs, and shifting the blame away from the EV operator.
Since the customer is never wrong...
Snicker....
Funny Lots of us are still tweaking our chargers, and living with OLD dieing
batteries...That get the job done.
Madman
Note... .the Monster Garage Abuse...did nothing to reduce my irritation
threshold..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" >
To: >
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
> Joe Smalley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Wow, That is quite a testimony about the behavior of a smart
> > charger and a PFC-50.
>
> It certainly isn't anything I'd take to the bank ;^>
>
> The fact that Roland can crank up his PFC-50 and *overcharge* his house
> battery because he doesn't understand that a battery is charged based on
> the temperature it is *at*, not at the temperature he might later use it
> in, is really a good illustration of why smart chargers are a "good
> thing" for those who don't understand batteries well.
>
> Nowhere does he indicate what temperature the battery is actually at,
> which is the only thing of interest to properly charging it. 15.53V is
> about right for a battery at -5C (23F), but his battery is being charged
> in a 74F ambient after being used for some amount of time in a 0F
> ambient.
>
> All I can really glean from his "testimonial" is that it sounds like he
> is relying on a voltage-based SOC indicator, and that by mis-adjusting
> his PFC-50 he can charge the battery such that it is most likely gassing
> and heating up more than with the smart charger such that when he takes
> it outside for his short test (battery has little time to significantly
> change temperature) its voltage holds up better than the cooler battery.
>
> Of course, a charger is not necessarily good just because it is "smart",
> so it is possible that Roland's particular "smart" charger isn't
> properly charging his battery either, and indeed may be erring on the
> side of undercharging while Roland is manually erring on the side of
> overcharging.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Battery chargers need to monitor the temperature of the batteries. Because
there are so many in the car they should take a sample temperatue from each
compartment and use this temperature to to set the absorption and float
voltages.
Your comment about smart chargers is way off base, maybe 5 years ago but not
today. Today's chargers are PIC based and all parameters are easily
adjustible. Current levels, Absorption, float and Equalization voltages,
temperature curves and switch to float currents are all able to be set at
precise levels.
Where are these chargers is your question? Give me till the end of February
then write me and ask if it is done yet. I have realized that in order to
complete my EV project I need a charger. IT IS the most important part if
you want your batteries to last.
Mark Grasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricky Suiter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 5:59 PM
Subject: Smart Chargers, was - Re: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
I think the problem with the smart chargers is they just have one charging
algorythm for any type of battery you hook it up to. So these chargers need
to charge flooded, gel or AGM batteries. So the problem becomes do they set
the curve for flooded batteries and cook gel's to an early death? No the
buyer wouldn't be happy because his battery would die real quick. So they
settle on the most gentle curve that can charge anything, but does not
charge properly. I have a few of these chargers and they work ok, but
they're not 100%. The one thing I like is the particular ones I have won't
overcharge and will automatically resart on their own so they can also
double as a maintanier.
I've found being able to manually change these little parameters is a
huge benefit, which I'm just now starting to really realize and
appreciate.
BTW, after those two bad batteries were replaced the car's running great.
I made some slight changes to the charge settings, but judging by the sg
and voltages I'm seeing both before and now I don't think I was
undercharging by any means.
Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Let me see, The 12 volt battery coming in from a temperature of 5 below
is been cold soaking down to 30 degrees. This time I install the smart
charger on board, but when I drove the EV into a warm building, and try to
charge the battery, the smart charger was warm up to 60 degrees and only
charge the battery for only 5 minutes. The SG was still at 1.225 SG.
Letting the battery warm up to 60 degrees and try again, the smart charger
would not charge it.
I then switch over to the PFC-50B and adjust the max voltage to 15.2 volts
at 40 amps for a battery setting at 60 degrees. The battery then charge up
to 1.265 SG! in less than a hour with the ampere taper down to below 4
amp. This is not overcharging it, because the battery temperature never
went above 70 degrees. I exchange the smart charger for another one, but
it did the same thing after I did more runs with the EV.
I left the smart charger on continuous for over 24 hour, but the next day,
the battery percentage was still at 55 percent and barely had 10 volts
when I apply a 20 amp startup load.
I than crank up my onboard alternator regulator voltage to 14.5 volts
which was setting at 13.5 volts. Adjusted the idle control, so the
alternator is now charging full time, instead of just when the motor speed
is over 500 RPM. Now I can make a week of EV runs and the battery is now
at 100 percent charge.
So there is nothing wrong with the battery or charging it with the PFC-50B
or alternator. But there is something wrong with the design of these Smart
Chargers.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Rudman
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
Roger You twit. ( I could use stronger words...but this is a familly list)
The bare bones fact that you CAN adjust our dumb as a Rock charger.....
Is a Feature worth having... and a LOT of folks can operate a
screwdriver....
Most smart chargers... are so damn Smart the adjust features are absent..
leaving the operator at the mercy of
the really smart fools that think they have it all figured out.
This is a mistake.
Since the charger desinger can't possibly know all the enviromental, cycle
life and state of charge data points for every battery type.
So... For Roland and most of this EV list... having a charger that CAN BE
ADJUSTED... is a better solution than thousands of lines of code, that may
not
have anything to do with the actual problem the battery is suffering from.
I am getting tired of getting hammered from not having a "Intellegent
charger". I could have one in days if I wanted to. And Most of you know
it...
This Home Buildt EV customer Base needs flexabiltiy... and POWER.
The OEM base needs turn key chargers... and can live with destroying
battery
packs, and shifting the blame away from the EV operator.
Since the customer is never wrong...
Snicker....
Funny Lots of us are still tweaking our chargers, and living with OLD
dieing
batteries...That get the job done.
Madman
Note... .the Monster Garage Abuse...did nothing to reduce my irritation
threshold..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" >
To: >
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
Joe Smalley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Wow, That is quite a testimony about the behavior of a smart
> charger and a PFC-50.
It certainly isn't anything I'd take to the bank ;^>
The fact that Roland can crank up his PFC-50 and *overcharge* his house
battery because he doesn't understand that a battery is charged based on
the temperature it is *at*, not at the temperature he might later use it
in, is really a good illustration of why smart chargers are a "good
thing" for those who don't understand batteries well.
Nowhere does he indicate what temperature the battery is actually at,
which is the only thing of interest to properly charging it. 15.53V is
about right for a battery at -5C (23F), but his battery is being charged
in a 74F ambient after being used for some amount of time in a 0F
ambient.
All I can really glean from his "testimonial" is that it sounds like he
is relying on a voltage-based SOC indicator, and that by mis-adjusting
his PFC-50 he can charge the battery such that it is most likely gassing
and heating up more than with the smart charger such that when he takes
it outside for his short test (battery has little time to significantly
change temperature) its voltage holds up better than the cooler battery.
Of course, a charger is not necessarily good just because it is "smart",
so it is possible that Roland's particular "smart" charger isn't
properly charging his battery either, and indeed may be erring on the
side of undercharging while Roland is manually erring on the side of
overcharging.
Cheers,
Roger.
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, is my math wrong? I am changing from 1 warp 9 and the stock tranny
to 2 warp 9s and a series parallel, but still only a zilla 1k for now. I
was thinking that it would be about the same performance and that my
rear end ratio is gonna be ok.
I have a 3.7 : 1 final drive and I was using 2nd gear which is 1.902 : 1
I am changing from 1 warp 9 and the stock tranny to 2 warp 9s and a
series parallel, but still only a zila 1k for now.
cruising
24" tires 5280/2*PI = 840 revs/mile or 840 wheel rpm at 60mph * 3.7 *
1.902 is 5905rpm
I don't know what the remaining torque is avail after 300Volts -
BEMF(5905rpm) but lets call that x1
this was a little high rpms so I shifted to 3rd 840*3.7*1.3 = 4065 rpm
so x2 is higher than x1
now I remove the tranny and connect it to the driveline
24" tires 5280/2*PI = 840 revs/mile or 840 wheel rpm at 60mph * 3.7 is
3108rpm(is this to low?)
now the remaining torque avail is a little greater than x2 AND I have 2
motors so 2y >>x2
Accelerating
2nd gear and 1000 amp controller with 300V on tap is about 200 LB.Ft of
torque
200*3.7*1.902 = 1400lbs or .4G
direct drive 1000 amps at 150V/motor on tap is still about 200Lb.ft from
each motor but it will go away sooner untill the Series/parallel shift.
Will I have a flat spot? waiting for the S/P shift to happen?
so 2*200*3.7 = 1480lbs the same.
top end
also near the same it would be a little less cause the tranny comes with
an overdrive, but
6000rpm/3.7 is 1621. 1621/840*60 ~=116mph Only used on the track and I
am sure wind resistance will outweigh this, but won't I still have twice
the torque to do the work since at higher rpm the torque is voltage
dependent so this is something I won't be testing
Hill climbing.?
hummm, not sure twice the motor means less heat per motor but at the
wrong speed it will be harder on them. I really have no clue here(but
live more than 30 miles from nearest hill LOL)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is a guy in Modesto that is using an Altrax 72v with 12 flooded
batteries and is going 50mph flat out with an 8inch ADC.. Fourth gear. I
suspect if you used two controllers and motors with 72vdc in a light car it
might even be acceptable as a commuter for freeway use. It's amazing what
two or more motors can do. We're talking the same power as 144vdc with
about 400 amps or almost half as much as a Baby Zilla is capable of. Am I
wrong? Lawrence Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
Heat flow
Diode path currents.
A support for on road power handling
precharge
Tach
The fact that Altrax is out of the On road business...
You are playing with toys and bike drives...
I would take a Altrax over a Curtis anyday... but I was not aware that
Altrax made a above 72 volt controller anymore.
Rich Rudamn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 11:24 PM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
Everyone that compares Curtis controllers to Altrax always seems to like
the
Altrax better. What am I missing? LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
>> I would not use a Altrax on road for about 10 reasons.
>
> Uh-Oh... what would those reasons be? I was thinking of using one, but
now
> I am concerned hearing you say that :(
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, what a COOOOL post to receive. Glad everything
held together; glad you've had so much success on the
project, and WAAAAY delighted to see peer acceptance
of our joule-injected vehicles.
Congratulations!!!
--- "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> This update on the Nissan is way overdue, but
> describing its performance at
> last night's Corvette Challenge at Moroso
> Motorsports Park seems like a good
> opportunity to fill you all in. First, though, a
> little background:
>
> I've been driving the 240SX around town for the last
> month or so. It had
> been running at 192V for the first three weeks, with
> the current and motor
> voltage settings pretty low (you know--around 1000
> amps and 150V to the
> motors). Last week, though, I got nine more Exide
> Orbitals and enough Regs
> to finally cover each of the 25 batteries. With a
> grand total of about 4
> miles use on these last nine batteries, I felt they
> had more than enough
> break-in time to take the car to the track!
>
> Shawn Waggoner has been in close touch with all the
> track managers there at
> Moroso for the upcoming Battery Beach Burnout, so
> earlier last week, he
> called up the tech inspector, Gary, to see if we
> could take the car there
> for test and tune. Gary says, "No problem, bring it
> over on Saturday night
> during Corvette Challenge and I'll hold them all off
> when you want to make a
> few runs down the track." Man, if that's not
> accommodating, I don't know
> what is. These guys at Moroso are thrilled to have
> EVs at the track and
> they're doing everything they can to make it easy on
> us.
>
> So Saturday around noon, Shawn shows up with the
> trailer and we get to work
> on a few little details. Hook up reverse lights,
> raise that pesky passenger
> power window that's just not cooperating, get some
> decals on the rear
> window, and give her a nice fill up with the PFC-20.
> By 4:30 PM, we had the
> 240 loaded up on the trailer, right behind Shawn's
> X-Terra, to complete the
> 1-2 Nissan punch.
>
> We get to the track around 5:30 or so and give Gary
> a call. "Pull right on
> up to the gate and I'll meet you there," he says. At
> the ticket booth at the
> gate, the lady says, "One driving and one watching:
> 28 bucks." Gary pulls up
> in his cart and sets 'em straight, though, and they
> waive the admission fee
> for us. Nice! We drive on in to the pit area and
> pull the 240 off the
> trailer. We head straight over to the tech area and
> go over the car in
> detail with Gary and a couple other inspectors. The
> more they get into it,
> the more they're just shaking their heads in
> disbelief. And by this time,
> we've got a crowd of racers around us with questions
> coming like crazy.
> Shawn and I took our time answering the inspectors'
> and racers' questions,
> and made sure to let them all know that the first
> run or two would be WAAAAY
> turned down on power, just to make sure we got some
> good test time with it
> before something let loose. I was conservatively
> telling people that it
> might run a 16 second quarter mile, but that
> eventually they'd see much
> better than that. You could see that they were
> loving it, and were really
> excited to see what this EV could do!
>
> Next, we bring the car back over to the pits and set
> up the laptop and my
> Gtech Pro meter. I set the battery current limit to
> 1200 amps, motor current
> to 1200 amps and (series) motor voltage to 320
> volts. Parallel motor current
> is 2000 amps and parallel voltage is 160. Before I
> know it, we're pulling up
> to the front of one of the empty lanes and they just
> wave me right in! I
> figured I'd have at least a minute or two to set up
> the data acquisition! I
> had already set up Hyperterm to capture the text to
> a data file, but at this
> point, it was dark enough that I could hardly even
> see the keyboard to start
> the hairball spitting out data. I pull forward,
> thinking I just wasn't going
> to get that critical run data. Just as I'm staging,
> though, I tell myself
> there's plenty of time for me to lean over, type "p"
> and then "Q4" to start
> the data stream. . . there! I did it! . . .just in
> time to look over and see
> the christmas tree light sitting on GREEN!
>
> My foot comes down hard on the accelerator.
> Amazingly, the little 205/60-15
> street tires manage to bite on the track and the car
> hurtles forward! After
> a split second, the car lurches, and immediately I
> figure I lost the
> driveshaft or at least a shaft key. But no! The car
> continues to pull hard
> all the way down the track. It's going much faster
> than I had ever taken the
> car on the street, but on the silky smooth track,
> there's none of the
> vibration that I used to attribute to my home-made
> angle iron dual motor
> mount, or perhaps bad alignment of the motors with
> the differential. She
> pulls hard through the quarter mile, and I begin the
> long coast-down and
> then turn around to pick up my time slip.
>
> The guy handing out the slip is incredulous. "You
> ran a 14.27 with an
> ELECTRIC CAR??" Big smile on my face, now: "Yes, I
> guess I did!" I hit 95.06
> mph through the traps, and to top it off, the 14.274
> included a 1.053 second
> reaction time from when I was playing with the
> laptop! We couldn't have been
> more thrilled. It could have easily been a 13.5 run
> for its first time ever
> on the track, but I was happy to have the data.
> (Yeah, keep telling yourself
> that, Matt) Plus, I figured there'd be plenty of
> runs later in the night to
> improve on the time.
>
> In the end, though, I was never able to get the
> tires to hook up again,
> especially after bumping up the current to *only*
> 1400 motor amps. With the
> stock Nissan R200 differential, I peg-legged it down
> the track on runs 2 and
> 3. Run 4 was my best launch, but the lack of an
> appropriately sized
> generator, not enough time for charging, and the use
> of precious power for
> my only burnout of the night ended up giving me a
> disappointing 82 mph
> through the traps.
>
> I'm very excited to have the Hairball data from the
> first run, and some
> Gtech Pro data from my last run. The motors saw a
> high speed of 5800 RPM on
> the 95 mph run. I noticed that I was only in series
> mode for the first
> three-tenths of a second before it switched to
> parallel. That was the lurch
> I felt at the beginning. Basically the first three
> data points were 1250
> amps, 1000 amps and 750 amps. Then a brief switch to
> parallel and the full
> 2000 amps came in.
>
> On the slower fourth run, the data from the Gtech
> was pretty interesting,
> too. It shows 190 HP and 650 ft-lbs of torque at
> their peaks. It's all very
> encouraging, since I know there's a solid second I
> can take off the time,
> just by paying attention to the lights. I have a
> planned upgrade to the
> Nissan R200V, the viscous limited slip differential,
> which Lowell Simmons
> and I just pulled out of his 300ZX. Some wider Nitto
> or Mickey Thompson drag
> radials are in store for the larger 16", five-lug
> wheels from the 300ZX,
> too. And I still haven't tapped out the Z2K as far
> as series motor current
> and motor voltage. Should make for a good showing at
> the Battery Beach
> Burnout!
>
> The whole night couldn't have been much better
> (please don't bring up the
> reaction time, though--it's really starting to
> bother me now!) I can't
> stress enough how great the folks at Moroso have
> been. Shawn spent some time
> up with the announcers, and they were all too happy
> to
=== message truncated ===
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hell 400 amps at 96vdc is possible just using 48v. Just use two 48v
controllers and motors. I'm going to take my two forklift motors and mount
them on a VW adapter I'll just be using 12 batteries but I'm sure the
performance will be equal to a 144v 1231. LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 11:58 AM
Subject: Controller Selection (was Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for
Ampheads)
Rich Rudman wrote:
Heat flow
Diode path currents.
A support for on road power handling
precharge
Tach
The fact that Altrax is out of the On road business...
You are playing with toys and bike drives...
I would take a Altrax over a Curtis anyday... but I was not aware that
Altrax made a above 72 volt controller anymore.
Rich Rudamn
Hmmm.... I wish there was a middle ground between 450A/72V/$500 -
1000A/144V/$2000+ that isn't Curtis. I will never use that much amps in my
itty-bitty Fairlady commuting to work, seems like so much overkill. Well,
it *is* very much a toy car, so maybe a toy controller will work OK? What
I would like to do is run 600A/96V with programmability & serial logging.
But alas, it seems I must go slow(er) for now, or drive around with an
empty wallet :(
Tach I don't need, heat flow should be OK (the controller will be in the
frontal airflow), now as for the "Diode path currents" and "precharge":
whastza? Could you (or someone) explain that a bit in context for me?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to Matt and All,
First things first....Congrats! A 14.27 @ 95.06 mph on your first run???
Incredible!!!
Matthew D. Graham wrote:
Shawn Waggoner has been in close touch with all the track managers...Saturday
around noon, Shawn shows up with the trailer and we get to work...By 4:30 PM,
we had the 240 loaded up on the trailer, right behind Shawn's X-Terra...
Geesh...Lawless barely got off the plane from the West coast after his
week-long, full bore Monster Garage extravaganza with the Madman, then
he does all that with you? It's nice to know there's other
EV crazies out there like me :-)
Just as I'm staging, though, I tell myself
there's plenty of time for me to lean over, type "p" and then "Q4" to start
the data stream. . . there! I did it! . . .just in time to look over and see
the christmas tree light sitting on GREEN!...the 14.274 included a 1.053 second
reaction time....It could have easily been a 13.5 run for its first time ever
on the track....It's all very encouraging, since I know there's a solid second
I can take off the time, just by paying attention to the lights...
OK, the low 14 is impressive, so don't take this wrong, but your
reaction time has nothing to do with your ET. You could have sat at the
green light for 4 seconds if you had wanted to and your ET would still
have been a 14.27. Again, I'm psyched about your incredible low 14
second run, so I'm certainly not trying to tear down your
accomplishment....to the contrary, I'm impressed at your ET.
The only time the reaction time matters, is if you're bracket
racing...then, it's 'everything'. In bracket racing, whoever gets across
the finish line first, providing they haven't 'red lighted' (take off
before the green light) or 'broke out' (run a quicker ET than what they
'dialed in' at), wins. If you wasted too much time in a poor reaction
time, then you're not going to beat the other guy across the finish
line. The timer doesn't start unit your front tires break the light
beam, thus the amount of time you take to get going, doesn't affect your
ET. Even in a heads up style drag race against someone in the lane next
to you, you could have a poor start due to a long reaction time, have
the other guy get across the finish line before you do, and still beat
him, as long as your ET is less than his. Now, if you're talking about a
slow 60 ft. time vs a good 60 ft. time, then yes, that matters, and it
very much, affects your ET.
Anyway....just wanted to clear this up for you.
Way to go!
See Ya...John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
--- End Message ---
