EV Digest 4984
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: MG Update
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) White Zombie at the 2006 High Voltage Nationals!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Open source car development?
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Open source car development?
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: MG Update
by Jim Walls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Open source car development?
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV crashes Corvette Challenge party at Moroso!
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Open source car development?
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Open source car development?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Smart Chargers AND Open Source
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: AC prop reductive charger
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV crashes Corvette Challenge party at Moroso!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Flywheel problem
by Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Flywheel problem
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Setting up a Direct Drive
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Setting up a Direct Drive, Comments
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Flywheel problem
by Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Setting up a Direct Drive
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Carfull there pretty soon I will be making a Million a month on T-shirt
Sales alone, and having groupies come over to build Extreme Evs...
Thanks for the pat on the back...
I am so looking forward to a quite week at Manzanita, just doing my
thing....
With some good old Pink Floyd on loud not that Gen X stuff...
Thinking music...
I have about 6 more hours of sleep back in the Savings account, a good Micro
Brew at Silver City... Life is getting back to normal.
That pack... weighs 1000 lbs alone and there is about 100 lbs of copper to
support it. Nice to have Lion... We could do the Same thing and be 400 lbs
lighter if we
could use just the cells and BMS board.
I am going to Beg John Zick our team mate "Battery guy" for cell and enough
battery data to charge them with. But..he has some really tight security
issues, and they don't really want me to know too much.
I am thinking a NDA and a two way swap of charger data and battery testing
efforts on Manzanita's part may just get me what I need. But it's certianly
not free or easy.
The Farce on the pack is that we have to break it down just to charge it.
Yup We can do that, takes two sharp Ampheads, and about 2 hours, just to
charge them and about the same to do the physical
teardown and rebuild. Getting a BMS and a honest way to charge the pack on
board would be one of my dearest efforts, but they won't let me. Figuring
out how to talk to 384 BMS blocks, real time and then controlling a PFC
charger, should be a lofty goal of mine.
Clearly this pack concept and a BMS that supports the in battery brains
with a high powered charger could make millions for the battery manufacture.
I certainly wish to convey this message to the world and public..aka US,
that this battery can make our dreams come true, but they have to let me
try, and make it happen. The modules are made for the Milwuakee V28 Lion
tool packs. These are simply one of the or THEE most powerfull tool battery
I have seen 28 volts at 3 amphours. They are made for 40 amps all day, and
peaks over 100 amps. How far I know we can take them... isn't leaving this
keyboard. What We need is to have the heavy case removed and have the guts
that weigh less than half the 2.2 pounds that the whole thing is, mounted
into a larger case that allow larger cables and paralleling . This is a
simple idea, and one a EV racer would crave.
So...Dennis Berube... come out of hiding.... I have buildt a LION Ev racer..
before you did.
Been there done that Got the Tshirt..
The tools
the MAC tools chests and tools
And one heck of a good friend and Battery supplier...Team memeber John Zick
of Milwaukee tools.
I think both Shawn Lawless and I are drooling over the possibilities of
Speed and lightness...now that we are not swearing at 420 of them.
30 Kwhr... Man that's range in a well done EV.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: MG Update
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> >I want that Wrech that Shawn melted off and I threw at
> >Jesse's feet... THAT's some piece of EV history. That >I
> didn't impale it in Jesse's Forehead.... is a small
> >miricle....
>
> Raunchy, very raunchy!
>
> Thanks for the information. 750-1,000 wh/mile? Certainly not
> an example of an efficient EV, but will definately will get
> the gearheads to ask questions. That is one sweet effing
> battery pack. That same pack in Blue Meanie would give 200
> miles range. But the vehicle choice of a 62 Chevy makes a
> good statement about the fact that anything you want can be
> an EV.
>
> Can't wait to see you throwing things and scaring the crap
> out of those nearby.
>
> Forget the wrench. You are EV history in the making.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Oh boy, another NEDRA race, this time in the Midwest!
Yes, 2006 will be a HUGE year for NEDRA and the sport of electric drag
racing. I've been asked by the current NEDRA president, Rod Wilde, to
take charge of setting up this year's NEDRA nationals at PIR. I'm well
known for my 'arm twisting' to get EVers to travel long distances to
take part in the bigger electric EVents I've been involved with, so the
warning is out to all you Midwest and East Coast guys....I'll be
contacting all of you as the new year unfolds!
And speaking of contacting....I received a nice email from John Emde
concerning the 2006 High Voltage Nationals, the newest NEDRA EVent. The
FVEAA (Fox Valley Electric Auto Association) and Route 66 Raceway have
invited me to bring White Zombie to Illinois. The last time I was in the
Chicagoland area, this great group of guys treated me like a king. I
have fond memories of my time spent working on Bad Amplitude, working
with the NetGain boys, and hanging out with the area EVs guys.
So here's the deal...Tim Brehm, Jim Husted, and I are committed (or is
that should be committed?)...the deadly trio will be heading to the
Midwest in May, White Zombie in tow, and will race at the 2006 High
Voltage Nationals! The way I figure it, if we demonstrate that we can
travel longer distances for big EVents (I do have a history of doing
this), then maybe we can rekindle NEDRA's biggest EVent of the year, to
be held here in Portland (instead of Woodburn) and get the hottest EVers
from the other parts of the USA (and Canada) to come out west. There's a
lot of hot street EVs currently being built, plus some pretty radical
racing machines including Father Time's narrowed VW bug, so the Portland
races should be packed with high powered EVs.
John Westlund wrote:
Joliet, Illinois!?
Hot damn! That's a few hours drive from where I live, and I
would gladly meet other list members and see(and perhaps
ride in) the EVs others have built.
I've never ridden in an electric car. I'd love to have that
chance, just to get a feel for how they ride and so I know
what to expect from a properly completed conversion.
I think I can take care of this problem for you....how 'bout taking a
wheel lofting spin in White Zombie for your first EV ride? Can you wait
that long? Tim's gotten pretty good at steering the thing with the front
tires off the ground...he'll be happy to give you a 'lift' :-)
I've found the EVDL contributions from John Westlund to be the ones I
look forward to reading, and I always rush to open his emails to see
what he's got to say. He's given me hope that our newest and youngest
are fully capable of carrying the EV flag. What better way to thank him,
then to give a ride in the Zombie? Mr. Westlund, now you have even more
reason to be at the Route 66 track!
See Ya.....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lightning Ryan wrote:
Stefan Peters wrote:
Lightning Ryan wrote:
Anyway, I'm in, I can administer/moderate, maybe write new
mediawiki modules (need to do a maillist archive module) etc...
See http://www.seattleeva.org for the v1.3 mediawiki SEVA site.
A "closed" version running 1.4 can be seen ( for a few days ) at
http://207.175.61.212 we've added nested menus, no editing...
Ok, that's one down. What software packages (specifics help) are you
looking for on the server? Apache 2.0.54/Bind 9 (yes, "it's a good
thing" to do your own DNS) is a given. I'm looking around for a easy
to use site-builder setup for the project pages. The idea is that the
average tinker could create and maintain their own project site in
their spare time. Suggestions? I can have *something* up for ppl to
play around with (kick the tires) later this week.
Any more moderators? It will definitely need some ongoing website work
guys... and no dreamweaver... it's also "a good thing" to stay
open-source with the tools.
Linux/BSD, I'm not picky. Bash, joe the editor (please), lynx the text
based browser (handy), MySQL, Apache, webalizer stats reporting,
sendmail/postfix, bind is good ( I agree, do our own dns ), a compiler
is always good, all the standard stuff... Everything but the GUI.
Check, check and check... "joe the editor"? OK, back from a quick
google, neat - mini wordstar in a box - I had to deal with Wordstar on
my first programming gig waaaaayy back when. (bleah, I feel old now)
check then, but you *really* should try ee - ncurses is the wave of the
future baby! (inside joke) Sendmail! Postfix! are you mad? I got some
much better email justu then that whole mess. Talk about CPU hogs. Bind
finally got bearable in 8 something. I also use elinks - think lynx with
tables, forms and drop-down menus. We have thrown serious heavy duty
super long tests at different DBs when trying to decide on what to use
for all the "payment" stuff we do, and trust me, there *is* a difference
between PostgreSQL and the rest. It even kicked sybase out of the
running. But each to his own. I'll put both (MySQL & PostgreSQL) on the
server.
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki
Lately I'm a real big fan of mediawiki, good or bad I like to think it
could be used for many of the parts of such a site. Unlike the real
sourceforge I don't imagine we really need a software version control
and distribution system for the users and projects.
Yeah, I do like the look of that package... is there a PostgreSQL
module/conversion/port? MySQL gives me heartburn :(
I'm thinking that the front end could be a locked down wiki with strict
user creation by administrators. Users have their own user pages for
their projects, and a talk page for "chatting" and carrying on and such,
sub-domains could point to these projects/user pages. There would also
be a "Wiki" area which would be an entirely open sort of development
area where articles could be developed by anyone, once matured they
might go to the closed "Static" site where they could still be developed
but only by members with accounts. I'm not sure yet how well the two
could be merged, One would require a lot more moderation than the other
though...
As long as there is much friendly-touchy-feely goodness on the main
page. It will be the ever important first impression. Suck amps/NEDRA
is a good example of the showmanship (or bling) that may be required.
Artwork anyone?
Realtime chat would be nice, IRC, any ideas on a nice integrated IRC web
client?
CGI:IRC (yes, I know, perl is the root of all evil), PHP:IRC, CookieNest
Java IRC
Do we need/want to make real user accounts and email addresses
available? Would anyone want or need a [EMAIL PROTECTED] address? I
would imagine that most will still just want to use the EVDL and their
own e-mail, so I'm thinking not so much on the email, to begin with
anyway, except for admins/moderators.
I was thinking it would be much less of a headache to simply offer email
redirection (forwarding)
L8r
Ryan
ps. I'd hate to start yet another site that won't get any use, so
I'm wondering how we might merge with some of the existing projects.
How about concentrating on unpublished/hard to find content and heavy
linkage to start, with open invitations to follow. I'm sure there are a
few out there that would enjoy more time to spend on their EV projects,
less in front of the computer. I can set up an auto-archive of this list
(and others) direct to database, then we add a nice friendly front-end
to peruse it's valuable info. Perhaps a web list client for questions?
(registered members only?) I have some experience manipulating those
poor google spiders, so the site should get good ranking soon enough.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Stefan Peters wrote:
>
>> Lightning Ryan wrote:
>>
>>> Anyway, I'm in, I can administer/moderate, maybe write new
>>> mediawiki modules (need to do a maillist archive module) etc...
>>> See http://www.seattleeva.org for the v1.3 mediawiki SEVA site.
>>> A "closed" version running 1.4 can be seen ( for a few days ) at
>>> http://207.175.61.212 we've added nested menus, no editing...
Well, if you need help, count me in. I will gladly offer our servers to be
used as secondary nameservers or additional fileservers and should you
need any Linux/BDS setup or C/(D)HTML/PHP/MySQL support, no problem. As to
IRC I would suggest the usage of junkynet (irc.junkynet.org) because
they're pretty spam free and have very nice server features.
Because I am not a big fan of Wikis (yes - I don't necessary like all
those mainstream things :-) I think some kind of forum would be nice.
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
Like Now.. I just have to be a bit vauge on some details...
We are not sure what Jesse thought.....
Clearly... I am dumping on the list...as much as I dare.
Rich, you are amongst friends. You need a place to dump a bit - go for it.
I'm glad that you survived. I do regularly watch the show and just
seeing the stuff that does air, I can tell that it's high stress. Since
we see only a small fraction of the shop time, I can well imagine the
stress level for those involved!
Get some sleep!
--
73
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ofc: 818-548-4804
http://home.earthlink.net/~k6ccc
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michaela Merz wrote:
Stefan Peters wrote:
Lightning Ryan wrote:
Anyway, I'm in, I can administer/moderate, maybe write new
mediawiki modules (need to do a maillist archive module) etc...
See http://www.seattleeva.org for the v1.3 mediawiki SEVA site.
A "closed" version running 1.4 can be seen ( for a few days ) at
http://207.175.61.212 we've added nested menus, no editing...
Well, if you need help, count me in. I will gladly offer our servers to be
used as secondary nameservers or additional fileservers and should you
need any Linux/BDS setup or C/(D)HTML/PHP/MySQL support, no problem. As to
IRC I would suggest the usage of junkynet (irc.junkynet.org) because
they're pretty spam free and have very nice server features.
Sweet. This is starting to get some momentum. Can you feel the love?
BTW, since B is before L in the alphabet, it should be written
"BSD/Linux" instead... (official BSD advocate speaking here)
Because I am not a big fan of Wikis (yes - I don't necessary like all
those mainstream things :-) I think some kind of forum would be nice.
Michaela
You know, call me crazy, but I dug around and do happen to have a forum
with support for email lists... it can make an email list appear as one
of the forums, all automagically.
Hey, I got a suggestion from some web developers I asked to help (they
politely said no, I guess the market is tough for them now) that we
could run Drupal. It is very polished and has many modules.
Here are some sites that run it:
http://www.echoditto.com/
http://ourmedia.org/
http://kerneltrap.org/
http://evolt.org/
http://www.theonion.com/content/index
http://www.terminus1525.ca/site?l=en
http://acko.net/
And my favorites:
http://www.snowboard-mag.com/
http://www.spreadfirefox.com/
This would give us GUI site building, forums, blogs, galleries, the
works. Check out http://drupal.org/features for more. Tie it in with an
installation of MediaWiki, and it could be very slick indeed. The reason
that sourceforge is such a success (there were open-source project pages
before that) is that is provides a valuable toolset as well as community
aggregation for the independent developers out there. It falls under
both "people always like free stuff" and "the whole is greater then the
sum of it's parts".
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich, few comments. Your charger is good for what it is. But:
The bare bones fact that you CAN adjust our dumb as a Rock charger.....
Is a Feature worth having... and a LOT of folks can operate a
screwdriver....
Lot of folks can operate a variac too. It's even simpler.
Most smart chargers... are so damn Smart the adjust features are absent..
Can you point me to any "smart" charger in which you cannot adjust
the output voltage? *Note: means of adjustment, screwdriver or the
software, are NOT relevant. The charger is either adjustable or it is not.
> leaving the operator at the mercy of
> the really smart fools that think they have it all figured out.
> This is a mistake.
This is a mistake if a charger is targeted for buyers who buys
one unit. This is not a mistake if a buyer needs many (hundreds)
of units. For mass production calibrating each unit is a nightmare.
Since the charger desinger can't possibly know all the enviromental, cycle
life and state of charge data points for every battery type.
So designer provides all these parameters for adjustment. This how
fuel injection works - all environmental data provided by respective
sensors and a controller figuring everything out.
So... For Roland and most of this EV list... having a charger that CAN BE
ADJUSTED... is a better solution than thousands of lines of code, that may
not
have anything to do with the actual problem the battery is suffering from.
With this mentality we'd have screwdriver adjustable fuel injection
timing and no thousands of line of code taking care of it. Why don't we?
Because no normal customer wants to mess with it. It is about
convenience when things don't need your input and take care of
themselves.
I am getting tired of getting hammered from not having a "Intellegent
charger". I could have one in days if I wanted to. And Most of you know
it...
This Home Buildt EV customer Base needs flexabiltiy... and POWER.
The OEM base needs turn key chargers... and can live with destroying battery
packs, and shifting the blame away from the EV operator.
Since the customer is never wrong...
Snicker....
Rich, marketing your chargers in every other message you send out
is a bit annoying but OK. It's just a bad taste to do it by implying
that everyone else makes crap destroying battery packs.
Everyone respects you for what you do, but admit you're not the only
one who knows hoe to charge batteries.
Funny Lots of us are still tweaking our chargers, and living with OLD dieing
batteries...That get the job done.
We live in real world and pay bills. So you and I and others don't make
things the way they technically should be (or could be), we make them
the way customer wants to pay for them. There is BIG difference.
Everyone wants less manual work. But in hobby EV market (e.g. yours)
no one wants to pay for the hardware allowing less manual work, so
you make chargers which sell well to that market - this is business
decision and not technical.
If, say, your market would change to OEM suddenly "perfect" screwdriver
solution obviously will be unacceptable. If they'd wave green for the
chargers with thousands of lines of code, you opinion about it would
change rather fast. So again, as you said PFC is about perfect balance
for Home Build customer base. You gauge amount of "dumbability" of the
charger customers want to pay for and build just that.
So my point is there is no "best" charger. BRUSA makes much
better ones than anything out there, including power - you can
stack them. I don't push them on this list as hard because this is
wrong market for me (BTW, believe me, they do sell pretty fast,
companies buy them and love them). But unlike home base customers, money
isn't top priority for BRUSA's market, but it is for yours.
Thus the definition of "best" - their charger is "best" for their market
and yours - for yours. And *only* for yours, where money rules. Has
little to do with flexibility or lines of code.
Again, this my statement does not negate your achievements and enginuity
in any way - you know I respect you and the product is *great* for
intended audience. People *want* dumb screwdriver adjustable charger -
this is the only reason you make it (and you are very right!). Not
because it is better or worse than those with a code in them.
Let's be clear on this.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
Geesh...Lawless barely got off the plane from the West coast after his
week-long, full bore Monster Garage extravaganza with the Madman, then
he does all that with you? It's nice to know there's other EV crazies
out there like me :-)
Hi John,
Actually Shawn cloned himself. Must have been all that high voltage.
But in reality we have two Shawns out here in the East. Shawn Waggoner
has been assisting Matt with his spectacular Nissan and is organizing
the NEDRA BATTERY BEACH BURNOUT. And Shawn Lawless, who owns the Orange
Juice Dragster, is the latest Monster Garage star.
Both Shawns were at the NEDRA POWER OF DC in June and I think Shawn
Lawless will be racing Orange Juice at Shawn Waggoner's BBB race in
Florida.
But both are EV crazies in their own right.
And congrats to Matt with his first runs with the Nissan!!
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey! light-bulb-hovering-over-my-head time.
We could start by setting up the site as merely a central directory of
existing resources along with the free project hosting. (Should be
easy/quick enough)
Like so:
http://www.ent.iastate.edu/list/
Yeah, I know, bugs, ewwh. Anyways, ppl would submit links to help it
grow further. This would be the single most valuable thing to have, I
think. Then the directory could simple be folded into the rest of the
site once the community starts to grow. With two admin/moderators (more
to follow?), email forwarding, backup DNS (and potentially content),
plenty of storage, and a good URL, sounds like we could have a decent
starting point, yes?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There's been quite a bit of discussion lately about open-source EV design.
I'd like to redirect the subject a bit toward open-source design of EV
conversion components.
I'm a little hesitant to advocate open-source components too strongly,
because of the hard work that's gone into some of the for-profit efforts by
list members. I think they deserve our support. But let's face it - we've
seen, or at least I've seen, too many small EV component suppliers burn out
and/or simply vanish from our ranks.
For example, what do you do if you still have a Wiley, original PMC, or
Russco controller? How about more recent departures from the controller
race, such as Auburn and DCP? Most of these could still drive EVs with some
updating and repair, but the components are often impossible to find and,
worse, support is almost as scarce.
True, some of these guys are still around. Damon is building golf car
controllers - but he reportedly doesn't fully support his road EV
controllers. Russ is today building chargers - but AFAIK he doesn't support
his 80s-vintage controllers any more because of parts availability.
I may be dreaming here - this may be totally impractical - but it seems to
me that if these designs had been turned over to an open-source team when
their creators decided to move on to other projects, they might still be
evolving and supported. The designs might have been modified to use
currently available components (and even improved).
Again, this may not be practical - I'm no engineer - but this kind of
support might be able to keep these costly components working for hobbyists
of all budget levels.
I hate to bring it up, but what happens to the Zilla controller range if -
heaven forbid - something happens to Otmar? What if he should be badly
injured or killed in a road accident? What if someone sues him and he loses
his business? That could leave Zilla owners in the same boat as Auburn and
DCP owners, or for that matter PMC or Wiley owners.
What if Rich, working on the MG show, had been under that big Chevy when the
jack slipped? Would Joe or someone else carry on producing and the
supporting the PFC charger range while he was in the hospital recovering
from his broken ribs and collapsed lung?
I'd like to see open-source, published, modular, expandable designs for the
basic components of a hobbyist EV - DC controllers, possibly AC inverters,
DC:DC converters, and chargers. These designs could be developed by a
collaboration. As published, they could be -
1. Built from scratch by hobbyists
2. Made into kits by manufacturers
3. Assembled into factory-made units by still other manufacturers
With appropriate licensing terms controlling the possible variations on the
theme, one could literally mix and match bits of units from different
suppliers. It'd be rather like the VW Beetle fans who used to upgrade their
cars using bits from later bugs (I had a friend in college who started with
a '59 bug, and eventually had parts from just about all the years up to at
least '68 in both body and driveline).
So, I see two tracks for an open-source component effort.
One is the design of new, modular components that could be homebrewed or
turned into commercial products.
The other track would be to continue developing and supporting older
products that have been abandoned by their original designers (assuming that
the designers were willing to allow this).
Thoughts? Comments?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Dec 2005 at 14:59, Ricky Suiter wrote:
> I think the problem with the smart chargers is they just have one charging
> algorythm for any type of battery you hook it up to.
This may be true for some smart chargers, but certainly not for all. In
fact, in theory, all microprocessor controlled chargers can be reprogrammed,
one way or another. Some are easier than others. ;-)
If you have a charger custom-built for an OEM EV (EV-1, Ranger EV, Think,
etc.) programmability is apt to be pretty limited. In some cases it may be
possible to borrow / beg / buy a dealer or factory programming console - but
how much can you really do with it? Some enterprising hobbyist may reverse-
engineer the firmware and processor, and hack things, but that's a lot to
hope for. So these OEM chargers probably should be considered as dedicated
to one and only one EV application and battery system.
Some general purpose chargers have multiple algorithms available, but they
have to be programmed and / or tweaked by the dealer, distributor or even
manufacturer. Zivan chargers fall into this category. I guess how much of
a limitation this is depends on how often you plan to change your battery.
If you're experimenting a lot, it can be a real pain; but once you've picked
a configuration, it's not so bad. OTOH being tied to "authority" introduces
its own set of problems, from communicating your needs to the programmer, to
the possibility of chargers being "orphaned" if the mfr. or dealer goes
belly-up. Even if the latter happens, you can still try to (or hope to)
duplicate the factory programming tools and/or reverse engineer as above.
The most flexible smart chargers are 100% user programmable. The Brusa
range is an example. They can implement just about any algorithm you care
to think up, and the manufacturer freely distributes the programming
utility. Brusa chargers aren't cheap by any means, but in addition to the
flexibility, you'll also find very high end components and assembly quality
inside.
So while it's true that some smart chargers are fairly dumb when it comes to
versatility, it doesn't have to come with the package. A truly smart
charger is like a truly smart person - it can learn to do many more things
better, and probably learn them faster, than a dumb charger.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Dec 2005 at 16:46, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I
> suspect if you used two controllers and motors with 72vdc in a light car it
> might even be acceptable as a commuter for freeway use.
Thirty years ago, hobbyists used to do exactly that with 72 volt, 300 amp
Wiley and PMC controllers - and only one per vehicle - in light cars such as
Honda 600s, Fiat 850s, and the like.
Those guys would have been slack-jawed at the thought of even 144 volt, 600
amp controllers - that kind of stuff was for those with unlimited budgets in
those days.
I think you young whippersnappers are spoiled with these 240 volt, 2000 amp
monsters. <grin>
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
At 9:49 AM -0500 12/7/05, Lee Hart wrote:
Yes, it can be (and has been) done for either AC or DC. It has nothing to do
with whether your EV has an AC or DC drive system. Basically, they are using
the controller as a high-power battery charger. To make this work, you need:
- An EV controller that supports regenerative braking (i.e. it can charge
the batteries).
- A very high power AC receptacle.
- Sufficient control logic to avoid blowing something up!
It also needs about a 336V or higher pack voltage. That becomes a
problem since high voltage packs end up being so very expensive per
mile of use.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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Hello to All,
Chip Gribben wrote:
John Wayland wrote:
Geesh...Lawless barely got off the plane from the West coast after his
week-long, full bore Monster Garage extravaganza with the Madman, then
he does all that with you? It's nice to know there's other EV crazies
out there like me :-)
Hi John,
Actually Shawn cloned himself. Must have been all that high voltage.
But in reality we have two Shawns out here in the East. Shawn Waggoner
has been assisting Matt with his spectacular Nissan
Boy, do I feel stupid. I re-read Matt's post, and nowhere, did he say
'Lawless'...sorry 'bout that. I guess I've got the other Shawn on the
brain. I was in contact with him before the Monster garage thing on
another vehicle project, and got nightly 1.5 hour Madman downloads each
night last week, so again, I had constant Shawn Lawless input. I read
Shawn Waggoner but saw Shawn Lawless.
Apologies to Shawn Waggoner!
See Ya....John 'Monster Garage rejectee' Wayland
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I´m still trying to figure out how I should fasten the flywheel to my
motor. Or should I dump the flywheel/clutch. I´d prefer not to.
I have two flywheel joint options and fancy drawings in my page:
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~osarin/
If I use a bolt to screw the flywheel to the motor shaft, the "wall" of
the coupler axle is quite thin and could broke under heavy load. Only
5-6 mm (0.2 inch).
What about the option 2, can the transmission axle keep a light
flywheel/clutch system in its place? Are there suitable bearings to use
between flywheel/coupler and tranny shaft? The bearing rolls only when
the clutch pedal is down of course. Maybe a spring could be used to
press the system, so that dimensioning of the parts doesn´t have to be
so accurate.
Can the transmission handle this construction?
Osmo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:07 AM 12/12/05 +0200, Osmo wrote:
I´m still trying to figure out how I should fasten the flywheel to my
motor. Or should I dump the flywheel/clutch. I´d prefer not to.
I have two flywheel joint options and fancy drawings in my page:
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~osarin/
Hi Osmo
Siemens AC Motor? I thought that they had splined adaptors already available?
OK, ignoring that, how well do you get on with your local machine shop? Are
they GOOD? Pull the shaft out of the motor, get them to make a short
splined shaft that is interference fit, then chill the shaft, heat the end
of the rotor and bang it in quickly. Done right, it will NEVER move. Done
wrong it'll split the end of the rotor shaft (too big) or come loose (too
small).
Once the blank shaft extension is in, they can true it to the rotor, so
that you would then have a male shaft that you can put a taperlock onto.
Reverend Gadget - http://www.reverendgadget.com/triumph2.html has a good
way to do that.
Alternatively just use "loctite" or similar to hold the adaptor stub in
there, and rely on the fact that if it ever comes loose it can't go
anywhere because the gearbox input shaft pilot bearing is in the adaptor.
If it comes loose, you probably will not tell until pull-down, since with
the clutch engaged the parts are all rotating together, and on
disengagement the thrust of the clutch is pushing the adaptor stub into the
motor.
Alternatively go visit Bohler speciality steels or whoever is in your
country and find out about tool steels - if your splined adaptor was made
from one of those steels, then the thin wall will be as strong as solid in
a more common steel.
Hope this helps
James
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After a LOT of thought I was thinking of doing the same sort of thing with
my Nissan 240SX. I was thinking since the transmission and rear end pumpkin
are both fixed and bolted to the frame the distance between them is almost
the same distance as a 9" ADC motor. If I got the motor with the two shafts
I could hook U-joint couplings to it and attach it where the driveshaft used
to be. WALA! Hybrid. Put a big switch on the front dash for Gas or
Electric and Add some batteries and see what happens. I would just have to
remember to put the transmission in Neutral while driving on the electric.
I am thinking if I keep the speed below 40 the electric in direct drive
would be happy. If I needed to go on the highway just switch to gas, put it
in 4th, start the motor, and release the clutch. Am I smoking crack or
would this actually work?
-----Original Message-----
From: James Massey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 4:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Setting up a Direct Drive
At 12:57 PM 9/12/05 -0800, Joel wrote:
>I could use some help in thinking about how to
>properly connect an electric motor to a driveshaft
>through a u-joint. I want to set up a direct drive
>for a rear wheel-drive car. What is the best way to
>do this?
Hi Joel
I assume you are intending to keep the rear axle assembly? That gives the
gear reduction to allow a motor to run at reasonable RPMs.
The ::best:: way I know of is to have a new shaft put into the motor/s that
has the tailshaft spline cut directly into it (along the lines of White
Zombies' current setup). That way a standard tailshaft can be used (not
necessarily the original of the donor vehicle).
If it is a street use vehicle, in most places in the world there is a
requirement for an odometer, in which case it would be an issue. To use the
output shaft and back end of a gearbox grafted onto the motor is probably
the most effective, although depending on your access to machining may not
be cheap for you. I have a pair of 7" GE DC motors that I am keeping aside
with ideas to make them up onto an assembly similar to White Zombies' old
setup, but include the back end of the transmission. If I ever get there
that would go into the wifes' Nissan Skyline (used as a shopping trolley).
We replaced the transmission last year, and the length of the transmission
is about the space I'd need for the two DC motors. [Evil thoughts to bolt
up the front end of the tranny to conceal the two GEs and put a tiddly
little motor onto the old input shaft stub...get 'em every time].
James
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There is a way around this even. How about putting the motor off to the
side of the rear end and using a chain with a gear reduction. Since most
people put their car in second gear and just leave it that way how about
figuring out the same ratio with two cogged pulleys? I imagine a motorcycle
chain and gears would work just fine. Pick a motorcycle that is raced so
you could get a wide selection of gears and you could basically tune it to
any spec you wanted. Most of those newer motorcycles are making around a
145 horsepower through the chain so I believe it would hold up to EV use.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rodney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 6:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Setting up a Direct Drive, Comments
Hiya
I have been playing around with the same idea for a custom car that I plan
to build. Problem is that DC motors rev only up to around 5000-6000 RPM.
That means, as Bob says, you can get away with direct drive but at lower
speeds you end up using a whole heaps of amps from the battery, which
decimates your range. Other end of the scale is using a higher gear ratio
and sacrificing top end.. But you still end up using a lot of amps at lower
speeds (where you do most of your driving).
I am building a car, so I don't have to worry about conversions and use of
existing tranny, hence why I would love to do direct drive.. But not at the
expense of range.
I'm up for any other ideas.
Cheers
Rod
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks James,
GOOD? Pull the shaft out of the motor, get them to make a short
splined shaft that is interference fit, then chill the shaft, heat the
end of the rotor and bang it in quickly. Done right, it will NEVER
move. Done wrong it'll split the end of the rotor shaft (too big) or
come loose (too small).
I´d rather not take the risk. :)
Alternatively just use "loctite" or similar to hold the adaptor stub
in there, and rely on the fact that if it ever comes loose it can't go
anywhere because the gearbox input shaft pilot bearing is in the
adaptor.
Actually there is no pilot bearing originally in my gearbox shaft end.
But even without it, I agree there is hardly any big damage possible.
Alternatively go visit Bohler speciality steels or whoever is in your
country and find out about tool steels - if your splined adaptor was
made from one of those steels, then the thin wall will be as strong as
solid in a more common steel.
Are there any official classifications for these materials, so I would
know what I get? Is there any disadvantage of using very hard material
- maybe it doesn´t allow as much movements, heat..?
After sending my question I got another idea: instead of locking the
flywheel with a bearing in the gear shaft end, I could place the
bearing into the adapter plate. That means the coupler has to be made
in two pieces. (I have a picture of this also, but I can´t transfer it
to my site because of a ftp error at the moment. Maybe later.)
Osmo
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--- Begin Message ---
Chris;
What ratio rear end are you running, and what motor RPM are you assuming for
your redline figure of 75 MPH?
Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Robison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 4:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Setting up a Direct Drive
There's something important to consider -- John Wayland has direct drive on
the Zombie, and I'll be doing the same thing soon myself, partly to reduce
weight and complexity, but also partly due to problems with clutch slip
under extreme torque. Be aware that in order to successfully implement a
direct-drive vehicle, you'll have to have:
- a motor capable of very high torque, or
- a low performance/range expectation and very effective motor cooling, or
- a very low intended top speed, so you can use a shorter ratio in the
rear.
And be aware that because your motor will be spinning more slowly in general
(whenever your vehicle is not near its maximum speed), it will continuously
be operating in a less efficient RPM range, and may present problems with
overheating without additional cooling.
On the other hand, you'll be gaining some efficiency from losing the
transmission. Nonetheless, I'm expecting it to be a net efficiency loss for
my project vs. a smaller motor and a transmission -- but hopefully not by
too much, especially if I have a separate set of rear-end gears for street
use, topping out at 75 or so at redline.
--chris
James Massey said:
> At 12:57 PM 9/12/05 -0800, Joel wrote:
>>I could use some help in thinking about how to properly connect an
>>electric motor to a driveshaft through a u-joint. I want to set up a
>>direct drive for a rear wheel-drive car. What is the best way to do
>>this?
>
> Hi Joel
>
> I assume you are intending to keep the rear axle assembly? That gives
> the gear reduction to allow a motor to run at reasonable RPMs.
>
> The ::best:: way I know of is to have a new shaft put into the motor/s
> that has the tailshaft spline cut directly into it (along the lines of
> White Zombies' current setup). That way a standard tailshaft can be
> used (not necessarily the original of the donor vehicle).
>
> If it is a street use vehicle, in most places in the world there is a
> requirement for an odometer, in which case it would be an issue. To
> use the output shaft and back end of a gearbox grafted onto the motor
> is probably the most effective, although depending on your access to
> machining may not be cheap for you. I have a pair of 7" GE DC motors
> that I am keeping aside with ideas to make them up onto an assembly
> similar to White Zombies' old setup, but include the back end of the
> transmission. If I ever get there that would go into the wifes' Nissan
> Skyline (used as a shopping trolley).
> We replaced the transmission last year, and the length of the
> transmission is about the space I'd need for the two DC motors. [Evil
> thoughts to bolt up the front end of the tranny to conceal the two GEs
> and put a tiddly little motor onto the old input shaft stub...get 'em
every time].
>
> James
>
>
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