EV Digest 6578
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) 5.5 inch front forks
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Weatherization and Cooling of Motors
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: charging while driving question
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: FAST(er) NEV's - Update HB 1820 Washington State
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Free LEDs
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Weatherization and Cooling of Motors
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Weatherization and Cooling of Motors
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: FAST(er) NEV's - Update HB 1820 Washington State
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: FAST(er) NEV's - Update HB 1820 Washington State
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Weatherization and Cooling of Motors
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Big Honking Motor...... again
by "Joe Vitek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: FAST(er) NEV's - Update HB 1820 Washington State
by "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: NiMH Battery Packs in Parallel
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Big Honking Motor...... again
by "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: E meter source? - Inexpensive e-meters by Microlog
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: charging while driving question
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: FAST(er) NEV's - Update HB 1820 Washington State
by "bortel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: charging while driving question
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: NiMH Battery Packs in Parallel
by Aaron Richardson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: NiMH Battery Packs in Parallel
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: E meter source? - Inexpensive e-meters by Microlog
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) (no subject)
by "Barry C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: FAST(er) NEV's - Update HB 1820 Washington State
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Big Honking Motor
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) A few newbie questions.
by "Barry C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: NiMH Battery Packs in Parallel
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Big Honking Motor...... again
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) ev photo archive
by "Patrick Andrews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: charging while driving question
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Big Honking Motor...... again, fun with Trolleys
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I have a small Vego/Bladez type scooter. The forks are simular to anything
from an eGo to a Vego. I need a wide fork to install a second hub motor.
Normal width is around 3.5 inches. I need 5.5 inches. Any ideas? Lawrence
Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Jeff, are you TRYING to get me in trouble with Jim ? ;-P
I don't need any help on that front. (I just use red yarn)
IIRC it was Jim who approved me to use the baking soda as a light abraisive to
clean up a commutator.
I can't prove that unless I can find the e-mail. He's never called me, even
when he was in Anchorage visiting his siter :-( so it must be in an e-mail.
So I should be able to prove it. I don't suspect that it looks too bad inside
my motor after almost a year of driving. The dust accumulation on the outside
is limited to bottom rear side of the housing near the Transmission.
And too, if he lets Plasmaboy run the Siamese 8's without cooling, I don't
think I'd get cross with him for not cooling my single 9".
Careful though, you might talk like you're on his side, but he's suspicious of
EVeryone :-) The trick with the yarn is wait till he takes it under, wait for
1 post and then hold on for dear life :-)
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 10:18 am
Subject: Re: Weatherization and Cooling of Motors
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Hmmm, he says "blow it out and take some baking soda and water to
> the commutators to
> clean them up." I wonder if that is an approved method. Jim?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:53 AM 3/21/2007, john fisher wrote:
so you are saying in order to get this PHEV to work, either the
genset needs to make similar Kw to the battery set so it can drive
the motor effectively, or ( hypothetically speaking) you need two
battery sets which you can switch back and forth. One being
discharged while the other is charging...
Did I get this right?
No. Everybody tries to make it really complicated.
Say you have a car that takes XX KW's to cruise down the road.
You have a genset that can generate YY KW's.
If YY > XX, The generator is supplying all the power you need, and
charging the batteries.
If YY = XX, The generator can just keep the car going, but the
batteries don't get charged.
If YY < XX, The generator supplies PART of the power needed to move
the car, and the batteries supply the rest. Your range will be
greater than running on just the batteries since the batteries aren't
being loaded as heavily. Your batteries will still get discharged
while cruising along at speed, but will be getting charged if you
slow down to where YY > XX again. (Sitting stopped at a stoplight
counts here as well!)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is not entirely true, a 25 MPH limit I just so much more
limiting that today most NEVs are either used away from
public streets or in certain communities only, as the roads
connecting different parts of town are 40 MPH at least,
sometimes 45 MPH or even 50 (Expressway)
Bringing the speed of a NEV up to 35 will allow operation
on roads up to 45, which will make it so much more useful
for around town driving, where today you can't get anywhere
with a NEV.
For example, there is no legal way that I could go to the DMV
with a NEV today, because it is at the other side of a crossing
of a 40 MPH and a 50 MPH street.
I can go there by bicycle, but a NEV is not legally allowed to
go there, you need a trailer to bring it to the DMV and back
or to go to any other part of town.
I also do not think that there is a way that I can go to work
with a NEV, because all streets crossing the 101 Freeway between
where I live and where I work are at least 45 MPH.
I can go there any day by bicycle across any of those crossings,
though (and I do once a week make the 10 mile each-way ride).
But again - no legal way for a NEV today.
At 35 MPH limit (allowed on up to 45 MPH roads) then I can
select which way I take to work, many ways to get there, so
then NEVs will be an option for public streets, where today
they are not.
Hope this clarifies why you don't hear many people cheer
this good initiative on: either they already have a 35 MPH
max community, so they don't need faster limits or people
have high speeds street blocking them, so they never were
interested in a NEV to start with.
Only a small group is faithful and waiting for the NEV
speed limit to go up.
I would certainly like to see this happen.
Not necessarily for myself, but I have a disabled friend
who finds it hard to drive a car, hates freeways and would
be very interested in a NEV for shopping and around town
driving, but can't legally leave the street as the crossing
street is 40 MPH.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ralph Merwin
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 9:56 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: FAST(er) NEV's - Update HB 1820 Washington State
Steven Lough writes:
>
> Funny, this is not getting as much traction as I thought, I mean in
> the EV community... With the potential number of EV Sales possible, I
> thought it would be a Hot News Topic. After all a 25 mph limit is..
> well... very limiting. But 35 mph is fairly USEFUL. Most in-city
> streets and arterioles are 35 mph or less..
Maybe it's not getting much attention because it's not all that useful.
It may be true that most in-city streets are 35mph or less, but a large
number of in-city dwellers don't stay in-city enough to warrant a special
purpose vehicle for in-city driving.
For instance, I live in Portland and my work is 17 miles away in Tualatin.
It would be difficult to get to/from work without using the freeway.
A vehicle with a 35mph limit is no more useful to me than a vehicle with a
25mph limit...
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Which colors?
(Don't tell me that lights are red, yellow, green,
I mean: which colors does he have available?)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of bortel
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 1:10 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Free LEDs
I regularly sell 650 LED versions of these red 12" lights on eBay for
$21.95. I buy them from various government agencies, test and sort the
'good' ones (with all LEDs working) from the 'bad' ones (usually 10 LEDs not
working because they are in series strings of 10 and one single LED goes
bad, 649 still good), clean them up and resell them. I don't have any of the
'good' ones in stock right now, but I do have lots of the 'bad' ones. If
anyone on the list wants some of these to play with you can have them for $8
each, or 5 for $25, plus UPS Ground shipping.
Dan
-------------------------------------------
Matt,
Surplus Center has two red led traffic signal light fixtures that were
removed from service, $14.95. Here is the link:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007032010464655&item=11-3160-
D&catname=electric
Alan Brinkman
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 7:47 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Free LEDs
In a message dated 3/16/2007 4:40:16 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The source: Traffic light signals and Walk/Dont Walk signs bummed from
the trash of the local city
traffic light maintenance dept where my son works.
Any chance you will find you have "enough" of these and can start selling
them to your fellow Listers?
Sounds like VERY nice light sources!
Thanks
Matt Parkhouse
(who is using LEDS for head, tail and brake lights on my EV
three-wheeler)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That was really a typo. I meant to say when he was here visiting his "sister".
Although she might have felt like a sitter considering this fascination with
killing Persians.
----- Original Message -----
From: MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:25 am
Subject: Re: Weatherization and Cooling of Motors
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Hey Jeff, are you TRYING to get me in trouble with Jim ? ;-P
> I don't need any help on that front. (I just use red yarn)
>
> IIRC it was Jim who approved me to use the baking soda as a light
> abraisive to clean up a commutator.
> I can't prove that unless I can find the e-mail. He's never
> called me, even when he was in Anchorage visiting his siter :-(
> so it must be in an e-mail. So I should be able to prove it. I
> don't suspect that it looks too bad inside my motor after almost a
> year of driving. The dust accumulation on the outside is limited
> to bottom rear side of the housing near the Transmission.
>
> And too, if he lets Plasmaboy run the Siamese 8's without
> cooling, I don't think I'd get cross with him for not cooling my
> single 9".
>
> Careful though, you might talk like you're on his side, but he's
> suspicious of EVeryone :-) The trick with the yarn is wait till
> he takes it under, wait for 1 post and then hold on for dear life
> :-)
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 10:18 am
> Subject: Re: Weatherization and Cooling of Motors
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>
> > Hmmm, he says "blow it out and take some baking soda and water
> to
> > the commutators to
> > clean them up." I wonder if that is an approved method. Jim?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, Mike,
No trouble intended. Baking soda on the comm is a new one on me. Just
checking. I've serviced a few comms, but I'm sure Jim has me beat 100 (or
1000) to one.
Jeff
MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hey Jeff, are you TRYING to get me in trouble with Jim ? ;-P
I don't need any help on that front. (I just use red yarn)
IIRC it was Jim who approved me to use the baking soda as a light abraisive to
clean up a commutator.
I can't prove that unless I can find the e-mail. He's never called me, even
when he was in Anchorage visiting his siter :-( so it must be in an e-mail. So
I should be able to prove it. I don't suspect that it looks too bad inside my
motor after almost a year of driving. The dust accumulation on the outside is
limited to bottom rear side of the housing near the Transmission.
And too, if he lets Plasmaboy run the Siamese 8's without cooling, I don't
think I'd get cross with him for not cooling my single 9".
Careful though, you might talk like you're on his side, but he's suspicious of
EVeryone :-) The trick with the yarn is wait till he takes it under, wait for 1
post and then hold on for dear life :-)
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Major
Date: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 10:18 am
Subject: Re: Weatherization and Cooling of Motors
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Hmmm, he says "blow it out and take some baking soda and water to
> the commutators to
> clean them up." I wonder if that is an approved method. Jim?
---------------------------------
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
True... and no one is asking you to drive a NEV... but 25MPH is
restrictive even for a bike. <g>
BTW, what possible advantage does a person have for licensing a LSV?
Checking Oregon laws, it appears you have all the same costs and
requirements, plus can get fined if your car doesn't remain between 20 and
25MPH.
> Maybe it's not getting much attention because it's not all that useful.
> It may be true that most in-city streets are 35mph or less, but a large
> number of in-city dwellers don't stay in-city enough to warrant a special
> purpose vehicle for in-city driving.
>
> For instance, I live in Portland and my work is 17 miles away in Tualatin.
> It would be difficult to get to/from work without using the freeway.
>
> A vehicle with a 35mph limit is no more useful to me than a vehicle with
> a 25mph limit...
>
> Ralph
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> - especially since on often hast to travel through some rough
> neighborhoods.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
That's an easy one, David. Simply use a electric fence charger to "excite"
the outside of your car. <vbg>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
None taken :-) But if Jim don't come ripping in to me on this one I'll be
amazed. I'll have to send him a bag of Kaladi Brothers coffee beans before I
post my next motor question :-O
I believe I asked him about this once indicating what I thought was my brushes
squeaking. I've since determined it to be the throwout bearing and am planning
on replacing it this summer. However my comm's getting a little darkened
fairly evenly all the way around. I was thinking a very light abrasive like
baking soda and water would do the trick to clean it up. Works great on my
teeth to get all the coffee off :-) I won't use 80 grit on my teeth so I
probably shouldn't use it on my comm either.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:48 am
Subject: Re: Weatherization and Cooling of Motors
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sorry, Mike,
>
> No trouble intended.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > Lets see, I don't think it was over 3' long, and only about 18" dia.
> > He was guessing < 1000 lbs. So you could probably carry it in the
> > back seat! :-)
> > It probably came off some logging equipment somewhere.
> >
> --And if ya live in Seattle, Vancouver, or SF their lots of 500 plus DC
> wires just hanging around, for the trakless trolleys! Who needs Badd-eries.
> Your F-250 would go like hell!Don't ya HATE seeing them going to waste?Some
> nice light bamboo trolley poles, copper shoe on top, wires fed through
> natures' perfect conduit?
If it came off of logging equipment, one would think that it is probably an AC
induction motor. I wonder what the instantaneous torque/current would be at
stall when supplied with 500VAC...
=======8-O
:)
--
joe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I think that in most US cities, an EV has to be able to make at least 50mph
to be really useful. But the extra 10mph proposed here would help.
Seems to me like people are always going to try
real hard to find some reason it isn't going to
work for them. "It's too slow." "I live in a place
that gets snow." "I have to drive uphill."
People resist change. That's just a fact of life
for all but the thrill-seekers and early adopters
who blaze the trails. Eventually people start
going there, once the trails are well marked
and they put up a few rest areas. :)=)}
Ten miles an hour faster doesn't sound like
much -- and it still may not fit into somebody's
life who has to face six lanes of yakking cell
phone junkies putting on their makeup and
fiddling with their iPods every morning -- but
there are a lot of places in the US and Canada
small enough that people can get around all
day without hitting anything that looks like
a freeway.
Being able to get on most of those routes
is a major plus. Opens it up to a few more
people making the switch, which ultimately
means more EVs on the street and more
people thinking, "Gee, I wonder if I could
get one of those?"
If yer sayin' it doesn't interest you because
it doesn't fit yer personal situation, then it
sounds to me like you need to broaden
yer perspective a little bit and pull a little
harder for the team. Then we all win.
Chuck Hays
fzzt!*pop* Power On!
Interior BC
_________________________________________________________________
Have Some Fun Out Of The Sun This March Break
http://local.live.com/?mkt=en-ca/?v=2&cid=A6D6BDB4586E357F!142
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Keetlist said:
"Would it work to put the charger on a timer and set the voltage to only
90% of full?"
Mick says: The voltage on Ni-MH rises when the recharge begins but then
levels off and stays pretty flat until the cells are highly charged. Then
the cells heat up a bit and the voltage on the string actually drops. Many
Ni-MH chargers look for that drop in voltage to signal the charger to
terminate the recharge. I don't think you could define "90% of full" based
on a charger setpoint voltage or the battery's peak voltage during recharge.
Some of the (surprisingly sophisticated) chargers that are used in the
remote controlled toy aircraft world can clock the number of amp-hours
delivered to the pack during recharge. If one accurately knew the amount of
amp-hours removed from the pack during the discharge and one then did some
accurate battery math, and one then closely monitored the ah-returned
counter on the charger, the charge could be manually terminated after X ah
had been restored. That's several big ifs, however, so it sounds like a
great way to ruin some expensive cells. A recharge routine with "set it and
forget it" simplicity would be better for me.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob, I have 5 GE 140hp to 165hp, both series and separately excited trolley
motors at 600 to 750vdc. They weigh about 1500 lb each. You could use four
of them on an all wheel drive.
On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:43:44 -0500, Bob Rice wrote
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 12:20 PM
> Subject: Re: Big Honking Motor
>
> > At 11:17 AM 3/21/2007, Bob Rice wrote:
> > >WOW! Where did he get THAT little jewel?Probably weighs 2000 lbs? PCC
> > >trolley motor?They are about that size?I could convert my 54
> > >Intertrashional School Bus camper to lectric, with that one! Only
problem
> it
> > >would costafortune to ship it to Corrupticut!Hmmm, no, it;'s too heavy
to
> > >bring home in a Prius?EVen if it is a series motor.
> >
> > Lets see, I don't think it was over 3' long, and only about 18" dia.
> > He was guessing < 1000 lbs. So you could probably carry it in the
> > back seat! :-)
> > It probably came off some logging equipment somewhere.
> >
> > --And if ya live in Seattle, Vancouver, or SF their lots of 500 plus DC
> wires just hanging around, for the trakless trolleys! Who needs Badd-
> eries. Your F-250 would go like hell!Don't ya HATE seeing them going
> to waste?Some nice light bamboo trolley poles, copper shoe on top,
> wires fed through natures' perfect conduit?
>
> My two poles worth
>
> Bob again.
> > John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.413 / Virus Database: 268.18.16/729 - Release Date: 3/21/07
> >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Acuti said:
"I can't seem to find a source for E meters...Aren't they still made or sold
by someone?"
Mick says: The product is now known as the Xantrex Link 10, but as E-Meter
there were several different flavors: with shunt, without shunt, with
RS-232, etc. I'm not sure about the several flavors anymore. Visit
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/237/p/1/pt/5/product.asp
Contact me off list if you'd like a quote on the Link 10. While at the
Xantrex website, check out their XBM battery monitor which also fits a 2"
round hole if you can live with a square faceplate. This unit is a relative
newcomer with some nice features. It can do some data recording and can
interface with a PC if you buy the software. I have the software but mainly
to just configure the meter more quickly for my clients, so I haven't played
with the other features.
Glenn Meader sent an interesting link to the Microlog low cost battery
monitor:
http://www.micromediaplus.com/microlog_dmm-3_dmm-4.html
Mick says: I think the Microlog is not a true amp-hour meter, which may
explain its relatively low cost. From a cursory look at the specs, the
Microlog seems to read voltage and "real time" amperage, but apparently does
not accumulate amperage over time to develop amp-hour readouts. Correct me
if I'm wrong. The price does look attractive and some people would be fine
with just amps and not amp-hours.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
what am I to think?
John L tells me what I want to hear, and Roland says it won't work.
BTW another post led to this site
http://www.micromediaplus.com/microlog_dmm-3_dmm-4.html
and this diagram
http://www.micromediaplus.com/dmm-4_diagram_en.gif
which is not unlike the PHEV.
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
At 11:53 AM 3/21/2007, john fisher wrote:
so you are saying in order to get this PHEV to work, either the genset
needs to make similar Kw to the battery set so it can drive the motor
effectively, or ( hypothetically speaking) you need two battery sets
which you can switch back and forth. One being discharged while the
other is charging...
Did I get this right?
No. Everybody tries to make it really complicated.
Say you have a car that takes XX KW's to cruise down the road.
You have a genset that can generate YY KW's.
If YY > XX, The generator is supplying all the power you need, and
charging the batteries.
If YY = XX, The generator can just keep the car going, but the batteries
don't get charged.
If YY < XX, The generator supplies PART of the power needed to move the
car, and the batteries supply the rest. Your range will be greater than
running on just the batteries since the batteries aren't being loaded as
heavily. Your batteries will still get discharged while cruising along
at speed, but will be getting charged if you slow down to where YY > XX
again. (Sitting stopped at a stoplight counts here as well!)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have 4 GEMS that don't get a lot of road use because of the 25mph maximum.
The problem is the most roads around here are 35-40mph and I get tired of
blocking traffic. If the NEV limit was 35mph they would be on the roads a
lot more. I have actually raised the governor on one of them and find it
takes dirt roads on steep hills very well at that speed, but I won't put
that one on the street and get a ticket until the limit is raised.
If I were an NEV dealer (like MC) I would want this change because it would
make NEVs competition for the ZAP Xebras. ZAP claims a top speed of 40mph
for Xebras, but in reality they only get 35-37mph. And with NEVs like the IT
and other car like NEVs they would actually be more desirable than the
Xebras to the public because of the four wheels.
I'm sure many folks have little use for this speed (especially in somewhere
like Montana, now why were they the first one to raise the speed??),
But for most folks this would make an ideal second car for the short runs,
when their full sized EV is charging.
Dan
--- End Message ---
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john fisher said:
"so you are saying in order to get this PHEV to work, either the genset
needs to make similar Kw to the battery set so it
can drive the motor effectively, or ( hypothetically speaking) you need two
battery sets which you can switch back and
forth. One being discharged while the other is charging...
Did I get this right?
Oh and the same principles apply to lithiums as lead?"
Roland Wiench wrote:
"Let me put it this way, the gen set can charge the battery while the
battery is not running the motor. During that time the batteries are being
charge, the motor is running off the gen set power."
Mick says: Could I suggest a "bathtub analogy" which (while far from
perfect) may be helpful? If you imagine a bathtub with water in the tub, the
valves off and the drain plugged, that's an electric vehicle with a charged
battery sitting at a stoplight. When the light turns green the drain is
opened a little or a lot, depending on the lead in your foot. A dropping
water level represents a dropping state of charge on the battery.
Now consider an on-board engine generator/charger system (ignoring for the
moment David Roden's worthwhile remarks about pollution issues). The
generator/charger combination would be like opening the faucets above the
tub. Battery state of charge then becomes a function of the flow rate
through the faucets relative to the flow rate through the drain. If the
drain is open wide (lead foot) it may drain the tub faster than the faucets
can refill it, but the water level would drop more slower than if the
faucets were off. The generator/charger combination would then serve as a
range extender, but eventually the battery pack would be depleted because of
a net discharge on the battery.
If the inflow from the faucets were identical to the outflow through the
drain, the water level in the tub (or the SOC on the battery) would not
change. In this case, the generator/charger is essentially operating the
electric drive system directly, and the battery is just there as an energy
buffer.
(Side note: the above scenario would start with chemical energy (in the
fuel) converted to mechanical energy in the engine, converted to electrical
energy in the charger then back to mechanical energy in the electric drive
train, with a possible side order of conversion to/from chemical energy in
the on-board batteries). A regular ICE vehicle would also start with fuel
and finish with mechanical drive energy, but with fewer conversions (and
fewer energy losses) along the way. Pollution from the standard Detroit
dinosaur burner would also probably be lower as pointed out by David Roden.
That's because engine generator emissions have not been regulated and
legislated to the same extent that vehicle emissions have.)
If the drain outflow should diminish (such as when coasting downhill) while
the faucets are still on, the water level in the tub would rise. That's
analogous to a net recharge on the battery. Eventually the faucet flow rate
must be controlled or else risk overcharging the battery. If the bathtub is
a high dollar lithium ion bathtub, one must be sure to have lithium
appropriate control over the onboard recharge system.
Roland is correct in that one cannot simultaneously charge a battery and
discharge the same battery. The level of water in the bathtub must be either
falling (due to net discharge), rising (due to net recharge), or static.
Two sets of batteries on one vehicle (as John had wondered about) would
probably not be recommended by Roland or by others. There's no need for two
bathtubs so you can be filling one while draining the other one.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
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Do you not have the same overcharge problem with nimh batteries in
series? Couldnt the cells reach a different charge state over time?
Aaron Richardson
On Wed, 2007-03-21 at 14:14 -0600, Mick Abraham wrote:
> Keetlist said:
>
> "Would it work to put the charger on a timer and set the voltage to only
> 90% of full?"
>
> Mick says: The voltage on Ni-MH rises when the recharge begins but then
> levels off and stays pretty flat until the cells are highly charged. Then
> the cells heat up a bit and the voltage on the string actually drops. Many
> Ni-MH chargers look for that drop in voltage to signal the charger to
> terminate the recharge. I don't think you could define "90% of full" based
> on a charger setpoint voltage or the battery's peak voltage during recharge.
> Some of the (surprisingly sophisticated) chargers that are used in the
> remote controlled toy aircraft world can clock the number of amp-hours
> delivered to the pack during recharge. If one accurately knew the amount of
> amp-hours removed from the pack during the discharge and one then did some
> accurate battery math, and one then closely monitored the ah-returned
> counter on the charger, the charge could be manually terminated after X ah
> had been restored. That's several big ifs, however, so it sounds like a
> great way to ruin some expensive cells. A recharge routine with "set it and
> forget it" simplicity would be better for me.
>
> Mick Abraham
> www.abrahamsolar.com
>
>
>
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I believe that the Toyota Prius cycles its NiMH cells between 20% and
80% full, so their system must have some means of determining when a
cell is about 80% full.
Bill Dennis
Mick Abraham wrote:
Keetlist said:
"Would it work to put the charger on a timer and set the voltage to only
90% of full?"
Mick says: The voltage on Ni-MH rises when the recharge begins but then
levels off and stays pretty flat until the cells are highly charged. Then
the cells heat up a bit and the voltage on the string actually drops. Many
Ni-MH chargers look for that drop in voltage to signal the charger to
terminate the recharge. I don't think you could define "90% of full" based
on a charger setpoint voltage or the battery's peak voltage during recharge.
Some of the (surprisingly sophisticated) chargers that are used in the
remote controlled toy aircraft world can clock the number of amp-hours
delivered to the pack during recharge. If one accurately knew the amount of
amp-hours removed from the pack during the discharge and one then did some
accurate battery math, and one then closely monitored the ah-returned
counter on the charger, the charge could be manually terminated after X ah
had been restored. That's several big ifs, however, so it sounds like a
great way to ruin some expensive cells. A recharge routine with "set it and
forget it" simplicity would be better for me.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
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From: Glenn Meader
>Check out these new inexpensive battery monitor e-meters
>$94 for 2 batteries
>$99 for 3 batteries
>http://www.micromediaplus.com/microlog_dmm-3_dmm-4.html
These are perhaps a little too simple to be useful. It only displays voltage to
the nearest 0.1v, which represents a 10% change in state of charge for a 12v
battery. Since it only appears to have 3 digits, its 0.1amp resolution would
only apply with a shunt that gives a full-scale current of 20 amps.
--
Lee Hart
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set ev mail digest
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Ha! Not just the midwest. I have the Baltimore -and- D.C. beltways to
contend with. I've been invited to hang with my local VW group but I'll have
to drive through downtown B-more to get there. (shudder) It's my arse I'm
worried about, not my amps.
I'm afraid that 35 mph is only good for people who live in the city and
don't leave the city. I'm in suburbia and although I scoot through
neighborhoods as much as possible to avoid traffic lights and conserve my
amps, I'm always eventually forced out onto 50 mph roads. My old Comuta Van
could barely handle the SUV's and it made 55 mph. The Beetle does much
better at 67 mph.
Still...it shows that politicians are beginning to accept motive power of
other means and that's good.
Rich A.
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:50:01 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: RE: FAST(er) NEV's - Update HB 1820 Washington State
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Content-description: Mail message body
On 21 Mar 2007 at 16:29, damon henry wrote:
I have no more use for a 35 mph vehicle than I do for a 25 mph vehicle.
That's my first reaction too, but then I think of the Comuta-Car I had.
Its 38 mph top speed was actually pretty reasonable for use in town. I
think that 10 mph does make a significant difference.
That said, I still couldn't take the C-Car on the innerbelt (50-55mph), and
35mph NEVs won't be able to go there either. In many midwestern cities it's
a major pain to plot a route that avoids the innerbelt and goes through town
- especially since on often hast to travel through some rough neighborhoods.
I think that in most US cities, an EV has to be able to make at least 50mph
to be really useful. But the extra 10mph proposed here would help.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
_________________________________________________________________
Live Search Maps find all the local information you need, right when you
need it. http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag2&FORM=MGAC01
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If you wanted to do 500V with 6V golf cart batteries you would need
about 80 of them! I think you would need a bigger vehicle than a truck!
If it's an AC motor, it'll need to be more like 900V DC bus
voltage to generate 500V AC.
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I am new to this group and in the process of learning and searching for
a good donor car. I have a few questions.
1. Is this the right place to ask basic newbie questions?
2. Does anyone use battery equalizers like Powercheq?
3. I also have been reading about the single point watering system,
Aquapro. Do people use this type of system. They seem like it would be
really helpful.
I am wanting to build a EV that I can commute from Hayward to Oakland.
Able to run 65-70mph. 35-50mi. And also have the ability to carry 2
adults, 2 children for around the town errands on occasion.
This is doable?
Right now I was looking at a
Ford escort wagon
Warp 9 motor
Curtis 1231 controller
Trojan T145 6V batteries. (144V 24 batteries)
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I was just curious. Does there exist a sensor that you can put into a
flooded cell that continuously measures the specific gravity of the
electrolyte? This could be handy for monitoring the state of charge of the
batteries while driving since you couldn't use the hydrometer then.
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: NiMH Battery Packs in Parallel
> I believe that the Toyota Prius cycles its NiMH cells between 20% and
> 80% full, so their system must have some means of determining when a
> cell is about 80% full.
>
> Bill Dennis
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Vitek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 2:34 PM
Subject: RE: Big Honking Motor...... again
> > > Lets see, I don't think it was over 3' long, and only about 18" dia.
> > > He was guessing < 1000 lbs. So you could probably carry it in the
> > > back seat! :-)
> > > It probably came off some logging equipment somewhere.
> > >
> > --And if ya live in Seattle, Vancouver, or SF their lots of 500 plus DC
> > wires just hanging around, for the trakless trolleys! Who needs
Badd-eries.
> > Your F-250 would go like hell!Don't ya HATE seeing them going to
waste?Some
> > nice light bamboo trolley poles, copper shoe on top, wires fed through
> > natures' perfect conduit?
>
> If it came off of logging equipment, one would think that it is probably
an AC
> induction motor. I wonder what the instantaneous torque/current would be
at
> stall when supplied with 500VAC...
> Hi Joe an' all;
Almost a short circuit, of Wayland-esque proportions, until it got
going. But as an' AC it wouldn't have much starting torque? IF it couldn't
start something it would just hum like hell til it burned up, probably the
power supply, first?
Of course AC has come a long way, Baby! Rav-4 and EV-1 drivers enjoyed
the engineered AC stuff. I flew AC powered trains toward the later part as a
Acela Pilot. Acela pumped power back into the overhead, when braking, a
heartwarming thing. Most of the new Lokies are coming through with AC
Traction motors and a shitload of silly con to drive them. Plenty of
faithful old DC jobs still out there, though.
My two comm bars worth
Bob
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I just deleted my favorites and i can't rember what the website is for the
ev photo archive. I know im dumb.
thanks,
_________________________________________________________________
Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. Visit MSN
Presents today.
http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline&ocid=T002MSN03A07001
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So my question was orthogonal to the one he answered. I was asking if you could combine the genset output and the
battery output, which as you say is analogous to the water or potential if you prefer, in the bathtub analogy.
In fact I realized from looking at marine equipment that this is exactly what boats do, speaking of water. They just
don't have strings of batteries.
Good. That helps. Now I can figure out if the clean genset is cheap and light compared to batteries. And I have a rule
of thumb to guesstimate the capacities. What a great list!
JF
Mick Abraham wrote:
Roland is correct in that one cannot simultaneously charge a battery and
discharge the same battery. The level of water in the bathtub must be either
falling (due to net discharge), rising (due to net recharge), or static.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
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----- Original Message -----
From: "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: Big Honking Motor...... again
> Bob, I have 5 GE 140hp to 165hp, both series and separately excited
trolley
> motors at 600 to 750vdc. They weigh about 1500 lb each. You could use
four
> of them on an all wheel drive.
> Hi Geo, an' EVerybody;
Christ! ONE would be plenty! 100 T 145's aboard it would be a fun
rig!I got to drive a souped up Trolley bus in Dayton OH years ago when Bob
Aronson was gunna do a job for Dayton Transit. D.T. is one of the last, well
35 years ago, small trolley bus systems left in the USA. As Bob knew I was a
trolley freak, he sent ME down to check it out and advise.
Got a royal wrelcome a D.T. a walk through the car barn, where they had
an eclecltic collection of Brill and Marmon Harrington buses.With a 150 HP
DC series motor driving through a regular truk diff. Contactor controller,
the starting grids INSIDE the bus for heat. Not sure what the do in the
summer?One of their prides and joys was a new, light, Western Flyer bus body
fitted with the Old drive train, we went out back to the bus yard,. "Ever
Drive a trolley Bus?" I was asked, I said, "Nothing on Rubber tires, just
trolley cars" "Hop in" he sez. I climb in sit down behind the Ship's wheel,
directed to "Drive" release the parking brake, touch the "go" pedal, and we
roll out behind the shop. " Floor it! " he says. Gees! Like a Blue Meany
ride. We all but left rubber, 4 trak stereo!Talk about an EV grin! NOBODY
would take this one at a light. " I guess this helps to get the passengers
to step to the back of the bus" I sez.We flew along but I didn't swing out
FAR enough to stay under the wire, the trolley catchers did their thing,
snapping the poles down, safely to the roof. Same devices found on EVery
trolley car, as you don't want the off- wired poles thrashing around loose
at speed. A quick 'Reset" I think they were surprised to see that I knew how
to "reset" a trolley catcher<g>! See the cool things you can learn as a
member of your local trolley museum? As well as alota cool 19th century
electrical stuff, EVen being used today on the fastest racers!
Back to biz; They were looking to extend a few Trolley bus lines, like
into a shopping center, WITHOUT stringing wires up, plus being able to take
detours, without a long running start! I suggested the Big ASS sweeper size
batteries, the famous Tri Polars, that powered the Mars 2 car of EFP fame.
Stuffing maybe 580 volts of Lead under the long bench seats, that ran down
each side of the bus. We call those " Bowling alley cars"WIDE isles to hold
standees.Seats took up less room running along the inside walls.By running a
tad less than the 600 volt catenery the batteries would float under the
wire. Run the bus when not. I KNEW this would work. They, D.T. wanted, and
were almost ready to TOW a bus up to Detoilet, for us to convert, probably
one of their ancient Marmon Harringtons?Set the controller to amp limit, as
no drag racing on batteries only! That woulda been fun to try out, just
going down Woodward Ave , making all the bus stops, with the Detroit Street
Railway buses, that WAS the name of the Bus Co back then! playing like the
home team, see if any body would notice? No overhead wires in Detoilet. Do
ya think ELECTRIC buses would be allowed to live in GM's home turf? Detroit
had a wonderful Electric Rail system, 100 years ago, fanning out all over
MI. EVen Pullman cars USED to be built in Detroit, and a lot of other cool
stuff! Gees! Did ya see the article in the NY Times, I think? Of houses
going for less than CARS??!!Detroit was dying 35 years ago.Dead now!
Standard punch line was" Will the last person to leave Detroit, Please turn
out the Lights?" Now IF ya had Micro-Sloth's millions, you could BUILD EV's
in Detroit? Again. Bring it back to life? Sigh! Build a Tesla -like sports
car" the "Detroiter" The New Yuk Central RR isn't using the name anymore!
OK Out of Fantesy- Land for now. just talking about the big ass motors
brought back memories.
Seeya
Bob
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