EV Digest 6584
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Greener cars at Geneva motor show
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: A few newbie questions.
by "Barry C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: A few newbie questions.
by "Barry C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Better Data Logging Options?
by Rodney A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: A few newbie questions.
by "Barry C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: FAST(er) NEV's - Update HB 1820 Washington State
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) 120 VDC to 120VAC Inverter Source?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: Curtis stuff
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: A few newbie questions.
by "Ted Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: A few newbie questions.
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Better Data Logging Options?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 120 VDC to 120VAC Inverter Source?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: charging while driving question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: 120 VDC to 120VAC Inverter Source?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Better Data Logging Options?
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 120 VDC to 120VAC Inverter Source?
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Better Data Logging Options?
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: wall to road efficiency
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EVLN(Hawks' Senate Bill 185: "medium-speed electric vehicles")
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Article on the Geneva Motor SHow on msn.com
http://autoshow.autos.msn.com/autoshow/Geneva2007/default.aspx
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- "Barry C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I am wanting to build a EV ... Able to run 65-70mph. 35-50mi.
> > carry 2 adults, 2 children for around the town errands on occasion.
> > This is doable?
>
>No, not practically. If you can cut either the speed or the
>range in half, it could be. If you can recharge at the halfway
>point of the 35-50 miles, it counts as cutting the range in
>half. But if you're really putting on that many miles in a
>day, expect to replace your pack frequently.
I have been reading and searching trying to find a donor car that I will be
able to create that would get these results. I have been reading that the EV's
can achieve these speeds. Is it just that they can't sustain them very long? My
commute from Hayward to Oakland is about 20mi round trip. I most likely would
not have the ability to charge half way unless the public garage by the Oakland
city center has charging stations of some sort.
> > Right now I was looking at a Ford escort wagon
>
...
> > Trojan T145 6V batteries. (144V 24 batteries)
>
>Not in an Escort. It could never hold that much weight, at
>least not safely.
Any recommendations... I have looked at Toyota Tercel's, Geo metro's, small
trucks.....
One thing is I am capable of beefing up the suspension.
Thanks for your help.
>Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
>Albuquerque, NM
>S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John, great report as always! It does look like you were there if it had
held together. You talk about those elusive elevens. Well I distinctly
remember you talking about those elusive twelve's and that elusive 100 mph
mark. It is quite obvious that you are never satisfied, are you Mr. Wayland?
:-) I agree with Chris and Dennis's advice of going to a slightly taller
rear ratio. The best 60 foot time we ever got from Gone Postal was launching
in third gear on the front motor. This was advice from Otmar. You know, that
very rational and calm gentleman :-)
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:43 PM
Subject: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
Hello to All,
Man....so close, yet still so far, those elusive elevens! By now, thanks
to Rod's play by play reports, everyone knows what happened. It's starting
to sound like a broken record...or is that 'the record that wasn't
broken'?
OK, the setup for an exciting Sunday at PIR...When I finally was able to
get in touch with PIR's Pete Macias on Saturday and learned that the track
was not open for nighttime racing, he told me about the Craftsman series
points races for the following day, Sunday. I had seen it posted on their
web page but figured we probably couldn't race while the big NHRA
competition races were going on. Instead, I was cordially invited to bring
the car on down to run 'time only' with other cars that would be doing the
same. This sounded pretty good, because our young high school film crew
could get good daytime video instead of the harder-to-get nighttime stuff
that is our norm. Pete warned me that with so many racers showing up for
the first race of the year, that space would be taken up quickly and that
if we didn't get to the track right when they opened the gates at 9:00 am,
we might not be able to get our charging spot secured next to the 240 vac
mains where we usually set up.
Just as forecast, it rained Saturday evening through the night and on into
Sunday morning, but there was the promise of sun breaks and dry weather
beginning mid-day. Hey, it's Spring in Oregon, this is what you get and
you take your chances! I was up early on Sunday. Emails were sent and
phone calls made. When Tim arrived we finished some last minute items on
the car, grabbed everything we needed for a day at the races (we thought)
and loaded up the work service truck. I drove the car with Tim behind me
in the North West Handling Systems rig as we drove off in the
cloud-darkened late morning during a rain spritz. The film guys would meet
us track side. Since we didn't leave the Wayland EV juice bar until 11:30,
I worried if we could even race with fears that we'd lost the window of
opportunity to secure the charging area.
The drive to the track was uneventful, other than in my haste doing
under-the-dash wiring work, I inadvertently deleted the turn signal and
wipers functions. The rain spritz bordered on a full-on rain shower, so it
was a bit weird driving atop the dike that is Marine Drive at 45 mph
(about 15 mph shy of rain sweeping velocity) with the Columbia River a
nice abrupt twenty foot drop to the right, while thousands of rain drops
turned the windshield into a PhotoShop Pixelate Crystallized view of the
road before me. After 12 miles or so and still a few miles from the track
however, the rain dribbled itself out, the dark clouds moved on, and
sunshine began to dry up the road...Yes!
Arriving at PIR Tim and I swapped machines and he teched in without much
fanfare, getting a thumb's up for the tidy new battery pack design. To my
pleasant surprise, the charging zone was ours for the taking, and about
the time I was maneuvering the big Isuzu service truck in place, Greg and
his band of energetic camera toting high school video students arrived to
help secure the area.
The track announcer of the day was Dan Bullis, perhaps the best announcer
we could have asked for! The guys were able to pin a lapel mic onto his
shirt, so all Dan's terrific pro-electric commentary are captured...nice!
The new pack...clearly, has a lot more power! Before, when using the pack
of 30 larger Hawkers, the first run of the day/night was usually a low 13
or high 12, and we didn't get into the lower 12s until after 4-5 runs.
Last year's pack never gave anything better than a 12.308 (that
established White Zombie's class PS/A3 record) and the best trap speed for
the year was 104.73 mph, a down year compared to '05's smoke'n 12.151 @
106.25 mph. Sunday, the car had a new attitude and with its new pack the
very first run down the track netted a quick 12.646 @ 98.69 mph. Such a
quick time on cold and not-yet-broken-in batteries was quite a surprise.
Yes, the trap speed was pretty low for a 12.6, but I chalked that up to
the virgin batteries not being awake yet. I was correct. Oh yeah...some
dude in a stock looking Dodge-something ran a 15.293 @ 91.85 mph and was
the Zombie's first victim.
We were all pretty excited over the prospects for the day after that first
high-mid 12 run. I predicted the next run would be a 12.4 something @ 100
mph. I was way off on that one, as the feisty brick-sized Genesis
batteries were still waking up when they slammed home a 12.308 @ 104.20!
Whoa...a 12.3? At 104+ mph? On the second run? On still not warmed-up
batteries? Tim was matched up against a primer grey '69 Chevy Nova with a
built V8, and absolutely wasted it in front of lots of race fans. The Nova
turned a respectable 13.061 @ 101.37 mph. It's all caught on 4 cameras,
including a car-cam securely strapped into the Zombie's passenger seat
(check it out at the 'Photos' page).
The charging between runs went without a hitch, and the batteries warmed
up but never got super hot like the old pack used to. We did make sure to
keep an eye on the packs, monitoring amps going in, voltage rise, etc.
The third run also surprised me, because it seemed there was no 'wall' yet
as the ETs kept dropping by ~ 1/3 second on each pass. There was some poor
guy in a BIG red SUV that he had evidently tweaked a bit, when he was
staged against the little white 70s econocar in the right lane with all
the funny stickers on it. I'm sure he didn't know what him him when Tim
hit the amp pedal. The clumsy SUV ran the 1/4 mile in 16.427 @ 81.96
mph...White Zombie's 1/8 mile speed was higher at 87.81 mph, but it was
the scorching 12.161 @ 106.59 mph that brought 'Whoa's and Jeezzzz's' from
the race fans. I was pretty shocked that on the third run, we had nearly
matched the all-time best ET of the car, and, that we had just edged out
the all-time best trap speed! I knew that with a back up run we had a new
PS/A3 record in hand, but it was the allure of 11s on the next run that
had us all jazzed. Going by the way the car kept dropping so much time on
each run, and by Tim's reports of a solid 225 volts on the Emeter all the
way down the track, everyone was convinced that the next run would be an
11.9 or better.
After another flawless recharge, Tim was back in the staging lanes. We had
dropped the traction tire pressure to 12 lbs. since wheel spin was a
problem. This 4th pass turned out to be a solo run, so the crowd got to
appreciate how quiet the car was. A 1.669 60 ft. time and the 1/8 mile in
7.623 @ 88.02 mph had us all convinced an 11 second run was at
hand.....NOT! Instead, the car simply obeyed the Hairball's motor volts
pre-set limit and locked onto it's commands like a good soldier, turning
in a near identical run at 12.162 @106.96 mph. 'That', was a huge
disappointment for us. Tim and I both knew what had happened, but then we
had also both realized I had forgotten the USB to serial patch cable for
my Mac...damn! No way to get data from the runs, no way to check settings,
no way to change the limits. What frustration! Here we had this potent
pack merely teasing the car with power, but we could not change anything!
The final pass was a calculated one. We figured, that if we couldn't crank
it up at the far end by changing the limiting factors, we 'could' do
something about the first half of the pass. In all the racing we've done,
one of the things we've learned about this car, is that if we limited the
burnout to a short one, and if we pumped up the tires, the 1/8th mile ET
dropped and its trap speed increased. We're not certain why this is, but
it seems to be a constant. The drag radials were pumped up to 20 psi and
the burnout was brief. Just as predicted, the 1/8th mile was blistering,
the best 'ever' and the first time a 7.5-anything was achieved. In fact,
it was almost a 7.4-something! To be exact, White Zombie nailed the 660
ft. mark with a pro stock caliber 7.511 @ 88.86 mph! This would have
knocked a tenth off the ET...if the car could have made it all the way
through the run. We later plugged the 1/8 mile numbers into a drag slide
rule that predicted an 11.64 1/4 mile ET based on the 7.511! Of course,
that's for a gas car, but it seems to back up the strong possibility of a
high 11 second White Zombie capability - this with the battery amps still
not even turned up!
As pretty much everyone now knows, at about the 2/3 mark, White Zombie lit
up the track with a fireball...this, on a sunny afternoon! Tim got out of
it and coasted the final 1/3 across the finish line, with a trap speed 13
mph slower at just 94.18 mph. After coasting so far, the ET was still
12.256! A pro stock driver watching the run told us (before the fireball
happened), 'That's an 11.8 pass!' I think he was correct....if, it was
meant to be. It wasn't. No less than four emergency vehicles flew down the
track. There's something about flames that get them all excited.
Tim was able to drive the car back to the pits in the series mode, so both
motor sections were still functioning. It appears that only the rear
section had the problem. We charged the car back up, packed up camp, and
began the trip home, Tim in the truck and I driving the wounded Zombie. I
drove it very gently, not noticing anything too weird, but I only got
about 1/4 mile away from the track when the car simply lost power and
coasted down to a stop. More frustration. The hairball was coding out
indicating no main contactor. Of course, WITH NO COMPUTER CORD, we
couldn't access the Hairball to read the codes! We checked everything from
both packs, to both fuses, to voltages here and there, to wires and
connectors, but couldn't find the problem. Suspecting the rear motor
section, I did a quick re-wire of the Siamese 8 so that only the front
motor was on line.....nope, still coding out. I measured continuity on
both motor sections and got good readings, so it wasn't clear why the
Zilla was so unhappy.
We ended up, giving up, and tethered the car to the back of the service
truck with a short chain and nylon rope affair, and towed the car with the
hurt motor and the man with the hurt pride, home. One more thing....never,
ever, let Tim Brehm tow you! 40 mph with only 12 feet between you and the
back of a large box service truck (that you can't see around) with a
massive rear bumper atop a narrow dike-two-lane-road, is pucker time!
I know everyone is curious what happened to the motor and what happened to
the Zilla, but I haven't looked at the car since Sunday.
Time to decompress.....
See Ya.....John Wayland
Plasma Boy Racing
"We blow things up, so you don't have to!"
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
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7:52 AM
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--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Mar 2007 at 19:33, Mark Brueggemann wrote:
> > Not in an Escort. It could never hold that much weight, at
> > least not safely.
>
>An Escort wagon can tote 18 golf car batteries with aplomb. Or is that a
>plumb? I bet it could do 20. Twenty-four might be pushing it, but if one
>used the smallest size it might fly. I wonder if you could squeeze 6 under
>the back seat.
>All Escort wagons squat after a few years (the rear springs always seem to
>sag a bit) - just wait 'til you see what happens when you put about 10-12
>batteries back there.
>Another problem is that the Escort wagon starts out on the heavy side, and
>gets even heavier with all that lead. So it isn't exactly zippy.
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EV List Administrator
I thought the springs may squat, I was thinking of heavy duty springs or
airbags to support the weight.
I have been reading about a lot of cars out there with 144V and 192V systems
how are they dealing with the weight in small cars?
Thanks
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can you set it up like a 'dumb terminal' though?
I mean, without actually running the bulk of the
program, just do the setup
via a normal PC and then load it into flash memory
with the LCD so it just
shows the information?
I love the idea of a virtual instrumentation panel via
an LCD panel, but not
if you have to put a mini PC and OS in the car as
well...
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Brueggemann
Sent: Friday, 23 March 2007 5:39 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Better Data Logging Options?
--- Rodney A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you were to try to use labview as a custom
> instrumentation panel, what else do you need?
PC, DAQ hardware for what signals you're interesting
in monitoring. Could be as simple as a serial
connection
to an E-meter. That's it.
> What kind of things can you do with it?
Display the raw data on the screen, write it to disk,
or both.
Additionally, you can process the data (say, average
it) and
display it not only as numbers, but on a graph over
time, or
on a meter or bar type of display. The data is just a
variable,
so you can process it against other constants or
variables,
and display that to the screen or write to disk. The
data
can trigger events, say if you wanted a warning if
your battery
voltage is getting below a threshold you set. The
event could
blink an indicator red and play a WAV file through the
speaker
if you wanted.
> So if you get an LCD panel for it, what else do you
> need?
It's part of the "PC". You can use whatever display
you want.
In my case I'm looking at industrial spec'd touch
screens,
so I can put controls on the screen and manipulate the
program
without having to use a pointing device in the
vehicle.
> Whats OSX?
Apple operating system (corollary to Windoze).
> presume you need some kind of memory for the LCD
panel
> to run it?
You only need the resources of the PC (Mac, Doze,
'nix).
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Are you able to travel on the highway?
Thanks
>I have a 1981 Ford Escort with 20 US 2000 batteries installed. I
suspect >that the suspension might have been enhanced but it carries 15
batteries in >the back and 5 in the front. I did remove the rear seat
when I added the >last two batteries. The shocks still work properly
and it does not bottom >out when going over a bump.
>Beano -- 1981 Ford Escort EV
>Ted Sanders
> From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: A few newbie questions.
> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 09:28:09 -0500
>
> On 21 Mar 2007 at 19:33, Mark Brueggemann wrote:
>
> > Not in an Escort. It could never hold that much weight, at
> > least not safely.
>
> An Escort wagon can tote 18 golf car batteries with aplomb. Or is that a
> plumb? I bet it could do 20. Twenty-four might be pushing it, but if
> one
> used the smallest size it might fly. I wonder if you could squeeze 6
> under
> the back seat.
>
> All Escort wagons squat after a few years (the rear springs always
> seem to
> sag a bit) - just wait 'til you see what happens when you put about 10-12
> batteries back there.
>
> Another problem is that the Escort wagon starts out on the heavy side,
> and
> gets even heavier with all that lead. So it isn't exactly zippy.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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--- Begin Message ---
Randy Burleson wrote:
> This reads as if it is reasonable to drive 35 on a
> road with posted 45mph limits. Is it?!?!
That will undoubtedly vary from one situation and individual to another.
My experience using a NEV on 50kph (~30mph) and 60kph (~40mph) roads was
that I was seldom, if ever, unable to match the flow of traffic despite
the NEV's lower speed limit. I used the car to commute to/from work on
surface streets, so reasonable traffic volume and plenty of lights.
Often people don't appreciate just how much slower than the posted
limits they really travel even if they do zip up to the limit (or above)
between lights, etc.
> I'm all for these maximizing the utility of NEVs. If
> this is a silly law that artificially limits NEVs
> speeds beyond one which they can easily attain, then
> I support changing the law.
It really has nothing to do with what the vehicles are capable of
attaining; the low maximum speed limit applied to NEVs is a *safety*
issue. NEVs are *governed* to their low max speed; it isn't that they
are inherently incapable of exceeding these speeds.
Remember that the NEV vehicle class was created to allow these
'car-like' vehicles to be operated on public roads without having to
undergo crash testing. The low speed limit, and restricting their use
to roads with lower speed limits was intended to limit the amount of
carnage that would result when a NEV collides with another vehicle or
stationary object.
Personally, I think is irresponsible to legislate the ability for these
vehicles to be operated at higher speeds or on higher speed roadways
(where they can and will be struck by 'normal' vehicles travelling at
higher speeds) without first evaluating the ability of the vehicles to
protect the occupants in this environment and perhaps legislating in
additional safety requirements or performance standards to ensure an
adequate level of protection is provided.
NEVs aren't required to be crash tested, but the Canadian government got
samples of a few and did just this, then presented the videos of the
tests. One very popular NEV when subjected to a frontal crash (at
either the standard 30mph or its 25mph max, I don't recall which),
disintegrated completely; there was no crush zone behaviour, the impact
would have been fatal for occupants. Another NEV subjected to the same
test did exhibit progressive crush zone behaviour, however the seats
ripped free of their mountings, again turning this into a fatal event.
A significant difference between these and a moped-like vehicle that can
exceed 25mph is that NEVs are designed to appear car-like, and consumers
may not appreciate the difference in safety standards applied to NEVs.
It is not at all unlikely for a consumer to strap an infant or child
seat into a NEV...
I think that more sensible legislation would be to continue to restrict
NEVs to roads with speed limits of 60kph/40mph maximum, but allow the
NEVs to travel at speeds up to 50kph/30mph instead of the present 25mph.
And, if the legislation doesn't presently allow for it, provide the
ability for NEVs to cross roads with posted speed limits in excess of
60kph/40mph. NEVs will never work for everyone, but they don't have to.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello All!
I am working on a project and I need to ask for your input. I have a need for
a 120VDC to 120VAC, 60 HZ Power Inverter at about 1500 Peak Watts. I am
installing this into an EV for a test of sorts.
Does anyone have a source for such an inverter?
THANKS!
David
(Ratliffgrp AT AOL DOT COM)
************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone.
Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.
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--- Begin Message ---
logi did tell me that some of the curtis 1204 are so
old, that they aren't worth fixing, but not sure what
parts they are talking about.
--- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> G'day All
>
> Item 1) There was discussion a month or so back
> where someone got a Club
> Car Curtis (1204?). I now have one, too, and have
> trouble working out what
> the "Multi-step potentiometer" on the drawing that
> is available on-line
> actually does. Did whoever it was that was trying to
> get one going work out
> what was needed, if so could they let me know on or
> off list? Thanks.
>
> Item 2) A friend (another wannabe EVer) has acquired
> a Curtis "fuel gauge"
> off a forklift. It doesn't appear to be a simple
> expanded voltmeter, but it
> seems too old for its' information to be on-line. It
> is model:
> 993/1C243648JOO10, On the back are two rotary
> switches "Reset" and
> "Discharge" along with a 15-pin D connector. The
> front has a 10-position
> bar graph as well a a small digital display. All
> this is a 2" round
> housing. Daniel could find nothing more of it in the
> (partly wrecked)
> forklift, hopes he has all of it but suspects there
> may be more of it. If
> anyone has information on it, gratefully received.
> Thanks.
>
> Item 3) I have been lucky enough to get hold of four
> dead lower voltage
> Curtis controllers to play with (one being the Club
> Car one), three of them
> are 1204's, one may be a 1205 but is hard to read
> and I haven't got it out
> of its' case yet to be sure. The 1221 I have as well
> uses the same diodes,
> so I'm planning on "ratting" the special reverse
> diodes from the lower
> voltage units as spares for higher voltage ones.
> Someone (Lee?) mentioned a
> dual diode that one side of can be used as a
> substitute. I emailed that
> message on to my work Email and lost it in a server
> crash (...and my IT
> tech was in the process of rebuilding the servers so
> there was no backup at
> that time). Appreciated if someone who knows could
> list the substitute
> diode for me, thanks.
>
> Thats' it for now.
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes I can drive it on the expressways. It will cruise at 60 mph with ease.
However, the distance between charges will decrease
Beano -- 1981 Ford Escort EV
Ted Sanders
From: "Barry C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: A few newbie questions.
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:16:57 -0700
Are you able to travel on the highway?
Thanks
_________________________________________________________________
Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon.
http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglinemarch07
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--- Begin Message ---
--- "Barry C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have been reading that the EV's can achieve these speeds.
> Is it just that they can't sustain them very long?
Yes. You get speed or range, but not both.
> My commute from Hayward to Oakland is about 20mi round trip.
You gave a range of 20-35 in your other post, which makes a huge
difference. 35 is almost 2X. 20 miles, even at freeway speeds
is pretty doable.
>>> Trojan T145 6V batteries. (144V 24 batteries)
>> It could never hold that much weight, at least not safely.
> Any recommendations...
I don't think you'll need T-145's to get the range you are (now)
looking for anyway. My opinion of what a chassis is capable of
is based on what it would be like to drive it loaded similarly as
an ICE vehicle. Imagine putting a half a ton or so of sand
in an Escort and driving around that way. Just because you can
find places to fit batteries doesn't mean you can keep piling
them in for the sake of range. Yes, you can beef up the suspension
but that's just a start. You have to think about braking and
handling as well, which means balancing the pack from front to
back, keeping the center of gravity low, and not push your luck
with GVWR. I've seen conversions well above GVWR and consider
that an accident waiting to happen.
> I have been reading about a lot of cars out there with
> 144V and 192V systems how are they dealing with the weight
> in small cars?
They use smaller batteries, like Optimas or Hawkers.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Fisher wrote:
> LabView does have a free student edition:
> http://www.ni.com/academic/edu_lic.htm
Err... Almost free. You appear to need to purchase an academic site
licence before you have the option of providing free copies to students.
An individual student can purchase a student version for $80-100. The
rest of us who don't qualify are looking at $1200 :(
> [...] I'd best stay with off-the-shelf solutions.
Mark Brueggemann wrote:
> The issue Roger brings up about isolation is a good one, most
> DAQ modules are expecting basically TTL levels referenced to
> ground. Not that a suitable module doesn't exist, but since
> I've never had a need for one I've never sought one out.
I was just looking at $2000 USB solutions from Agilent, and even they
appear to be unsuitable (just a cursory look, so they *might* be usable,
but certainly there is no mention of isolation).
A very slick solution is Agilent's 34970A data acquisition/switch device
with internal 6.5-digit DMM option. 3 slots, each of which can hold a
20-channel analog mux each input of which is isolated from the others (2
wire relay-switched) and each channel can tolerate up to 300V. If you
don't need 60 analog input channels, there are 16-channel output boards,
etc. available that you can mix and match. I don't think you can get
one that will run off 12VDC, but it should run off a small inverter just
fine. We use several in the lab at work, and I use its ancester, the
HP3497A, at home but the 19" rack size 3497 isn't really friendly for
in-vehicle use ;^)
Agilent 34970A:
<http://www.home.agilent.com/USeng/nav/-536900534.0/pc.html>
A bit pricey for most hobbiests, but then people who are open to the use
of a $1200 software package for logging and analysing their data aren't
really "normal" hobbiests anyway ;^>
> Some might consider the idea of $1200 for a software program
> and maybe a like amount for DAQ hardware to be extravagent or
> superfluous, but consider the time investment you would have
> to make to build an equivalent system from scratch, using
> discrete components and "free" PC's. You could spend months
> getting the hardware built and bugs worked out, with an off
> the shelf solution you could be experimenting and playing
> with data within a few hours.
Let's see... My homebrew onboard data-acquisition consists of a few
tens of dollars of custom hardware to provide the analog mux function
and an RS232 DMM as the A/D. Probably not a lot over $100 total
investment. The custom hardware is on solderless breadboard, but sure,
it did take a few hours to design and breadboard it. An old '286 laptop
running Qbasic from a DOS prompt controls it all and logs the data.
Analysis is perfromed off-line using Excel, etc.
I have to say that if any of us hobbiests placed any realistic value on
our time & labour, we wouldn't be in this ;^>
But, if we did place a realistic value on our time, it would almost
certainly make sense to buy off-the-shelf software and hardware... Just
as it would make more sense to buy a professionally-built or production
EV instead of building our own ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I have a need for a 120VDC to 120VAC, 60 HZ Power Inverter at
> about 1500 Peak Watts. I am installing this into an EV for a
> test of sorts.
Exeltech make sine wave inverters for use at up to 120 volts nominal input.
Actually they describe them as "108 volt." I have no idea why; the specs say
"125 volts typical system voltage." They can handle up to 149v in.
The XP range only goes to 1100 watts (continuous), so you'd probably need
to use two of the stackable 1000W modules from the MX range.
Exeltech are high quality gear, made in USA, and (especially in higher
voltages) definitely NOT priced to compete with the Chinese sweatshop mod-
square inverters.
I have two of their 1100W, 48V input inverters in a backup power system.
They are things of beauty, IMO.
http://www.exeltech.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I have heard about the pollution issue of generator engines. What about
> using a small motorcycle engine? I know that 2-stroke motorcycles pollute
> more than 4-stroke, but how does the 4-stroke compare to standard
> automobile engines, and the generator? And can you do much to reduce it?
>
Newer motorcycle engines are better than lawmower engines, but nowhere
near newer automobile engines. The emmision requirements for on road
motorcycles is pretty basic and, last I checked, off-road bikes have no
requirements.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> Exeltech make sine wave inverters for use at up to 120 volts
> nominal input. Actually they describe them as "108 volt."
> I have no idea why; the specs say "125 volts typical system
> voltage." They can handle up to 149v in.
Probably because the on-charge voltage of a 120V nominal pack will
exceed the 149V max input rating. 2.5V/cell * 60 cells = 150V.
At 108V nominal (54 cells), 2.5V/cell is only 135V. The 149V max allows
for up to 2.76V/cell on the 108V nominal pack.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Rodney A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Can you set it up like a 'dumb terminal' though?
> I mean, without actually running the bulk of the
> program, just do the setup via a normal PC and then
> load it into flash memory with the LCD so it just
> shows the information?
Not sure what the "LCD" is, or what it's connected to,
if it's not hooked to a PC. No, it needs to be running
on a PC.
> I love the idea of a virtual instrumentation panel via
> an LCD panel, but not if you have to put a mini PC and
> OS in the car as well...
It's a trivial exercise, especially compared to building
the EV, a BMS, or other DAQ system. You could just run it
on a laptop if you wish. But, if PC-less is your goal,
you can forget LabView as an option.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey John,
Any chance the camera crew provided you with any clips to tease us with??
Or are they holding footage for their full length feature film about a guy in a
Plasmaboy suit??
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 10:41 pm
Subject: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Hello to All,
>
> about the time I was maneuvering the big Isuzu service truck in
> place,
> Greg and his band of energetic camera toting high school video
> students
> arrived to help secure the area.
>
>
> It's all caught on 4 cameras, including a car-cam securely
> strapped into
> the Zombie's passenger seat (check it out at the 'Photos' page).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.railway-technology.com/contractors/electrification/schaffler/
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:00 pm
Subject: 120 VDC to 120VAC Inverter Source?
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Hello All!
>
> I am working on a project and I need to ask for your input. I have
> a need for
> a 120VDC to 120VAC, 60 HZ Power Inverter at about 1500 Peak Watts.
> I am
> installing this into an EV for a test of sorts.
>
> Does anyone have a source for such an inverter?
>
> THANKS!
>
> David
>
> (Ratliffgrp AT AOL DOT COM)
>
>
>
> ************************************** AOL now offers free email
> to everyone.
> Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
John Fisher wrote:
LabView does have a free student edition:
http://www.ni.com/academic/edu_lic.htm
Err... Almost free.
try
http://vig.prenhall.com/catalog/academic/product/0,1144,0131999184,00.html
"Package Includes New LabVIEW 8 Student Edition. National Instruments' LabVIEW is the defacto industry standard for
test, measurement, and automation software solutions. With the Student Edition of LabVIEW, students can design graphical
programming solutions to their classroom problems and laboratory experiments with software that delivers the graphical
programming capabilites of the LabVIEW professional version. . The Student Edition is also compatible with all National
Instruments data acquisition and instrument control hardware."
from http://www.ni.com/labviewse/
$101 with book.
or ask a student
or take a community college course for $50 ( CA price YMMV )
or buy Ver7 from somebody for $50
not intended to be a panacea, but possibly interesting to digerati
I was just looking at $2000 USB solutions from Agilent,
You guys are on your own for the instrumentation, please report back.
and could you find something on a surplus site?
;>)
JF
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> Actually, Lead-Acid batteries rarely last 20,000 miles, many (most?)
>> don't even last 10,000.
>
> That's probably true. Most people (at least new EV owners) seem to abuse
> them into an early grave. I'd say 20,000 miles is a good number for
> flooded lead-acid golf cart batteries if you take reasonable care of them.
Absolutely, but (unlike many on this list) I'm comparing what ACTUALLY
exists, not what might exist.
>> But you are absolutely correct, EVs are not typically low maintenance.
>
> "Typical" EVs on this list are either built by very small inexperienced
> companies, or one-off home-made conversions. They aren't generally built
> to the same standards as new commercially produced automobiles. They
> often start out with a used car that already has lots of miles. The
> builder is often less than skilled in all the fields needed.
>
> But EVs certainly *can* be lower maintenance. Even with flooded
> batteries, you don't normally need to add water more than every few
> months. And there is no maintenance at all for the motor or controller.
And many new ICEs boast that they don't need their first scheduled
"tune-up" untill they reach 100,000 miles. In the town where I live, all
but one of the dealers offer free oil changes for life (inludes oil
filter), so your only maintenance costs for the first 100,000 miles would
be three(3) air filters. Well, that and chasis lube and tire rotation,
but you are going to have those regardless of whether it's an ICE or EV.
> You can see this quite clearly in commericial EVs; the electrics are far
> more reliable and lower maintenance than equivalent ICE versions.
Actually, I don't recall that from the recent commercially available EVs,
what I recall is frequent (monthly?) battery maintenance (granted, usually
included in the lease) and stories of EV1s that went through numerous
batteries, even whole packs, during their 3-6 year life span.
The fact is that ICEs are gettig incrediably reliable, to the point where
it's getting hard to claim that EVs /could be/ significantly more
reliable.
>
>> Think about how expensive an EV would be if you had to pay to have
>> a professional check and water the batteries every month.
>
> Fork lifts and golf cart users have to pay their maintenance people to
> do this. They still find the EVs cheaper than ICEs.
Perhaps in large fleets, but most bussinesses that I see with only one
forklift usually opt for propane powered ones. I have to wonder why that
is.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Those are all good ideas.
They should also waive any license for for 100% electric vehicles. They
save the government so much in health costs from not emiiting pollution
that the owners should actually get money FROM the government for
driving them.
On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 1:38 pm, bruce parmenter wrote:
EVLN(Hawks' Senate Bill 185: "medium-speed electric vehicles")
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
bozemandailychronicle.com/articles/2007/03/17/breakingnews/40car.txt
Hawks' Senate Bill 185: "medium-speed electric vehicles"
Governor takes a spin in an electric car March 17, 2007
By WALT WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chronicle Staff
Writer
HELENA - New vehicles that get at least 35 miles to the gallon on
highways would have their licensing fees waived for two years
under a new provision that Gov. Brian Schweitzer plans to add to
his "clean and green" energy bill.
He made the announcement Friday just before test driving what may
be the cleanest of vehicles -- an electric car.
"Hey, Nance! Whaddya think?" Schweitzer yelled at his wife while
looking over a gray ZENN electric car. "This is my pick for the
day. What other colors do you have?"
ZENN stands for Zero Emission No Noise. The three cars the
governor was looking at were brought to Helena by Ron Gompertz,
owner of Eco Auto in Bozeman.
Gompertz is asking state lawmakers to support a bill by Sen. Bob
Hawks, D-Bozeman, to allow medium-speed electric vehicles to
travel up to 35 mph on city roads.
Such vehicles are currently prohibited by law from traveling more
than 25 mph.
"A moped can go faster" than that, Gompertz said.
The governor took short drives in the vehicles, towing along at
least one reporter and at one point seeing if he could get his
dog, Jag, into the back of one of the cars.
He asked how fast the car could go, and Gompertz explained there
was a device known as -- no kidding -- a "governor" that kept it
from going over 25 mph.
"I actually like that speed limit -- I might buy it for my
daughter," Schweitzer joked, referring to his teenage daughter
Katrina. "I would like to put a governor on the car she is
driving right now."
Electric cars such as those sold at Eco Auto are classified as
"neighbor electric vehicles" under state law, a designation that
was created for golf carts.
Hawks' proposal -- Senate Bill 185 -- would create a new
category, "medium-speed electric vehicles," which would allow
them to travel up to 35 mph on roads, although they still would
not be allowed on roads with speed limits over 45 mph.
Medium-speed electric cars are not meant for cross-country trips,
but rather for driving around town. The problem is that
electric-car owners want to drive faster than 25 mph, so the
dealers hope raising the speed limit will convince more people to
buy one.
Another Bozeman businessman, Steven Titus, president of Free
Drive Inc., was in Helena Friday to drum up support for Hawks'
bill.
Most electric cars are simply plugged into an outlet so their
batteries can charge overnight. However, Titus has designed a
medium-speed electric vehicle that will draw part of its energy
from attached solar panels.
Titus said he recently attended an alternative energy car show in
California where 100 different types of vehicles were on
display.
"From what I heard, people are ready" for electric vehicles, he
said.
Schweitzer's proposal, meanwhile, would promote more traditional
vehicles, albeit ones getting good gas mileage. His proposal
would waive license fees for two years on a new vehicle that gets
35 miles to the gallon or better on highways.
The Honda Civic, Ford Focus FWD, Toyota Camry and Toyota Prius
all fit that definition.
The provision will be part of the governor's "clean and green
energy" bill, which includes tax breaks for clean-coal
technologies, solar and wind power, and biofuels. It will be
sponsored by Sen. Jesse Laslovich, D-Anaconda.
Hawks' bill has cleared the Senate and has been assigned to a
House committee.
Photos & articles ©1996-2006 the Bozeman Daily Chronicle
Bozeman, MT
===
eg.mt.gov/css/sessions/60th/leg_info.asp?...&SessionID=91&LAWSID=3871
[
http://laws.leg.mt.gov/pls/lAWS07/law0210W$BSIV.ActionQuery?P_BILL_DFT_NO5=LC0457&Z_ACTION=Find
LC0457 SB 185 Primary Sponsor (H) Hearing 03/16/2007 Provide for
medium speed electric vehicles]
===
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
: MEPIS Linux & WiFi powered :
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--- End Message ---
