EV Digest 6585
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Better Data Logging Options?
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 120 VDC to 120VAC Inverter Source?
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EV list: Become a Big brother or sister
by "Patrick Andrews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Was: 120 VDC to 120VAC Inverter Source; now 144->120?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Quick PFC20 question
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Better Data Logging Options?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: City El
by Kenneth Dove <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EVLN(Foster City, CA Council to OK nEVs on city streets)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Better Data Logging Options?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: new DC series motor run-in?
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Quick PFC20 question
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: wall to road efficiency
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: wall to road efficiency
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: FAST(er) NEV's - Update HB 1820 Washington State
by "John Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) EBEAA Meeting - this Saturday, March 24, 2007 10-12 in Alameda
by Ed Thorpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) EBEAA Meeting - this Saturday, March 24, 2007 10-12 in Alameda
by Ed Thorpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: ARGGG, destroying expensive lifepo4 cells. :( Need a "button"
fuse.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: NiMH Battery Packs in Parallel
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: 2007 Power of DC EV Racing Challenge
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Theres a bunch of educational info including webcasts on the NI site,
http://www.ni.com/academic/measurements.htm
and at first glance it is well drawn and well-laid out.
I am going to look through it as it explains a lot about DAQ for neophytes like
me.
These guys really do support their product. No wonder theres no competition.
Mark Brueggemann wrote:
--- Rodney A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If you were to try to use labview as a custom
instrumentation panel, what else do you need?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe I talked to the ExelTech folks many years ago when the XP110 came out
and even these ar parallelable. (If thats even a word). But quite spendy. I
just sold my 24Volt XP1100 for $300. They really are nice units.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:48 pm
Subject: Re: 120 VDC to 120VAC Inverter Source?
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > I have a need for a 120VDC to 120VAC, 60 HZ Power Inverter at
> > about 1500 Peak Watts. I am installing this into an EV for a
> > test of sorts.
>
> Exeltech make sine wave inverters for use at up to 120 volts
> nominal input.
> Actually they describe them as "108 volt." I have no idea why; the
> specs say
> "125 volts typical system voltage." They can handle up to 149v in.
>
> The XP range only goes to 1100 watts (continuous), so you'd
> probably need
> to use two of the stackable 1000W modules from the MX range.
>
> Exeltech are high quality gear, made in USA, and (especially in
> higher
> voltages) definitely NOT priced to compete with the Chinese
> sweatshop mod-
> square inverters.
>
> I have two of their 1100W, 48V input inverters in a backup power
> system.
> They are things of beauty, IMO.
>
> http://www.exeltech.com/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think everyone who is not weird should become a big brother or sister.
This is not some spam emait I just sent in my info to them in hopes to
inspire, educate, mentor someone who is less fortunite or lacking a role
model in their life. It is only one hour one day a week and you could change
someones life. Everyone on this list has something to offer.
I don't care if anyone responds I just want to put it out there because it
is not something that you would think about unless someone told you about
it.
If you made it this far thanks for reading,
Patrick Andrews
_________________________________________________________________
Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. Visit MSN
Presents today.
http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline&ocid=T002MSN03A07001
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting this thread came along. I'd like to run
my fridge in a power outage off of the HV pack in
CivicWithACord.
Any brands that accept a tad higher voltage which will
give a good sine wave, as opposed to a mod. square?
It will help me get started on the PV system.
Thanks,
--- "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > I have a need for a 120VDC to 120VAC, 60 HZ Power
> Inverter at
> > about 1500 Peak Watts. I am installing this into
> an EV for a
> > test of sorts.
>
> Exeltech make sine wave inverters for use at up to
> 120 volts nominal input.
> Actually they describe them as "108 volt." I have no
> idea why; the specs say
> "125 volts typical system voltage." They can handle
> up to 149v in.
>
> The XP range only goes to 1100 watts (continuous),
> so you'd probably need
> to use two of the stackable 1000W modules from the
> MX range.
>
> Exeltech are high quality gear, made in USA, and
> (especially in higher
> voltages) definitely NOT priced to compete with the
> Chinese sweatshop mod-
> square inverters.
>
> I have two of their 1100W, 48V input inverters in a
> backup power system.
> They are things of beauty, IMO.
>
> http://www.exeltech.com/
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just got my shiny new Manzanita Micro PFC20 charger a yesterday!!
I want to get this thing maintaining my Buggy batteries but I have a
question. On the output side there is an Anderson connector and a
unused green ground wire. Since my charger case won't be tied to the
chassis of the buggy (seeing as how its fiberglass) should I connect
the green wire of the output to frame ground?
Thanx,
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Labview does have a free version...
From: Roger Stockton
> Err... You appear to need to purchase an academic site licence
> before you have the option of providing copies to students. An
> individual student can purchase a student version for $80-100.
That's my understanding of it as well.
> Let's see... My homebrew onboard data-acquisition consists of a
> few tens of dollars of custom hardware to provide the analog mux
> function and an RS232 DMM as the A/D. Probably not a lot over $100
> total investment. The custom hardware is on solderless breadboard,
> but sure, it did take a few hours to design and breadboard it.
> An old '286 laptop running Qbasic from a DOS prompt controls it
> all and logs the data. Analysis is perfromed off-line using Excel,
> etc.
That is almost exactly what I did. A Metex ME-31 digital multimeter with RS-232
interface and software is $56.95 from www.jameco.com. Add some relays to select
what the meter reads, controlled perhaps by the PC's serial or parallel port.
It's fairly easy to have a pretty good measurement system for $100 and a little
time.
This system is what evolved into my Battery Balancer!
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Dan. I did not realize they were so low to the ground. I wonder
if the BugE sits up higher?
bortel wrote:
Kenneth,
There are a few City El's in the U.S. and, I believe, in the EV album.
There is a 'small' problem with using them in the U.S. in that they are VERY
low to the ground. In Europe, where all the cars are smaller, they are
marginal, but in the U.S., they are so low that most of the other cars can't
see them. Even with the trusty bicycle flag they are just about invisible to
many drivers. Just look at motorcycle/car accidents, motorcycles stand much
taller than a City El, but get hit regularly because folks just don't see
them.
Dan
------------------
It seems to me that the City El would be the perfect vehicle for me to
complete my many errands around town. They seem to be priced fairly and
there are always several for sale on eBay Europe.
My question is, "Has anyone registered one of these in the US"? It seems to
me that it would not be difficult to register as a motorcycle.
Finally, how difficult would it be to import one into the States?
Thanks in advance for your answers.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It seems to me that one accomodation for NEV's might be to have multispeed
limit roads that have multilanes. This is basically what we have with truck
speed limits. On a four lane previously 45mph road you could reduce the
speed in the right lane to 35 while keeping the 45mph limit in the left
lane. That might satisfy the law and please the regular car drivers.
Lawrence Rhodes
> EVLN(Foster City, CA Council to OK nEVs on city streets)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would much rather buy everything for an ev all in one piece and be done with
it. But since I don't have the $60,000 or more required for the cars that are
made to my liking, I'm going to have to hack something together and accept that
it won't be as nice in many ways.
Here are examples of some of the boards I will most likely be deciding between
when I get going. Most likely in combination with an old ibook as the brains,
taking off the original screen and using a smaller touch screen for the display
and input.
http://www.arduino.cc/
$32
http://store.makezine.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MKCONTRLLR
$150
I'm sure you can make some sort of simple circuit to keep the large voltages
away from these devices, and they are cheap! They plug in via USB either for
programming or for bringing their data in to the computer and have quite a few
inputs and outputs. They can be stand-alone (no computer) if you figure out a
way to use them that way, like with dials or LEDs as output. These would need
to have software written for them, as well as some sort of relay circuit for
each high-powered line that you want to monitor.
I will most likely be using the combination of Max/MSP/Jitter for this, but you
would only need Max. You can buy Max by itself for $250. You can create
anything you want with data-related interfaces that you could think of with
that program, probably quite similar capabilities to LabView.
http://www.cycling74.com/
Quoting Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
John Fisher wrote:
LabView does have a free student edition:
http://www.ni.com/academic/edu_lic.htm
Err... Almost free. You appear to need to purchase an academic site
licence before you have the option of providing free copies to students.
An individual student can purchase a student version for $80-100. The
rest of us who don't qualify are looking at $1200 :(
[...] I'd best stay with off-the-shelf solutions.
Mark Brueggemann wrote:
The issue Roger brings up about isolation is a good one, most
DAQ modules are expecting basically TTL levels referenced to
ground. Not that a suitable module doesn't exist, but since
I've never had a need for one I've never sought one out.
I was just looking at $2000 USB solutions from Agilent, and even they
appear to be unsuitable (just a cursory look, so they *might* be usable,
but certainly there is no mention of isolation).
A very slick solution is Agilent's 34970A data acquisition/switch device
with internal 6.5-digit DMM option. 3 slots, each of which can hold a
20-channel analog mux each input of which is isolated from the others (2
wire relay-switched) and each channel can tolerate up to 300V. If you
don't need 60 analog input channels, there are 16-channel output boards,
etc. available that you can mix and match. I don't think you can get
one that will run off 12VDC, but it should run off a small inverter just
fine. We use several in the lab at work, and I use its ancester, the
HP3497A, at home but the 19" rack size 3497 isn't really friendly for
in-vehicle use ;^)
Agilent 34970A:
<http://www.home.agilent.com/USeng/nav/-536900534.0/pc.html>
A bit pricey for most hobbiests, but then people who are open to the use
of a $1200 software package for logging and analysing their data aren't
really "normal" hobbiests anyway ;^>
Some might consider the idea of $1200 for a software program
and maybe a like amount for DAQ hardware to be extravagent or
superfluous, but consider the time investment you would have
to make to build an equivalent system from scratch, using
discrete components and "free" PC's. You could spend months
getting the hardware built and bugs worked out, with an off
the shelf solution you could be experimenting and playing
with data within a few hours.
Let's see... My homebrew onboard data-acquisition consists of a few
tens of dollars of custom hardware to provide the analog mux function
and an RS232 DMM as the A/D. Probably not a lot over $100 total
investment. The custom hardware is on solderless breadboard, but sure,
it did take a few hours to design and breadboard it. An old '286 laptop
running Qbasic from a DOS prompt controls it all and logs the data.
Analysis is perfromed off-line using Excel, etc.
I have to say that if any of us hobbiests placed any realistic value on
our time & labour, we wouldn't be in this ;^>
But, if we did place a realistic value on our time, it would almost
certainly make sense to buy off-the-shelf software and hardware... Just
as it would make more sense to buy a professionally-built or production
EV instead of building our own ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Roland
As self appointed Motor sheriff for the county of EVDL
I just want to rule with an iron fist... I mean make
sure EVeryone's getting the information straight.
To be honest there are a lot of camps here concerning
lets say "known facts" or "commonly held beliefs".
Now I've been here almost 2 years 8^) (ya young pup
still) but I've been here long enough to tell ya you
couldn't lock 10 of us up to choose a car color let
alone anything EV, LMAO! With that said just looking
at "motors" there are a great many camps, inside each
camp there are facts, sorta-facts, wishful thinking,
common beliefs, and good old fashion bull crap, LMAO!
You could lock up Wayland, Wilde, and Rudman and
they'd kill each other before they agreed on motor
stuff, I know I've worked on thier stuff, LMAO! Being
I call them for advise it's a real crapshoot on views!
I'm hoping to get with Otmar some time but he's the
one who locked the door on us, LMAO! You got to watch
those quiet shifty ones 8^)
As self appointed motor sheriff I do my best to sort
these camps and their ideals and to report back to the
townfolk of EVDL. Being a hometown made Sheriff (I
ain't been to any fancy pansy cop schools) there are
things I'm just needing to know "now" like social
skills 8^P
Trying to sort through the camps is a tough job to be
honest. I can tell you what a motor will do at 36
volts in a lift but 348 volts is a whole nother
critter (more like me on coffee). Throwing a 9" into
one conversion makes for a purring pussycat while
throwing into something that makes it work hard well
it's gonna bark like a dog on a hot summers day 8^)
As someone who's personaly built say 10,000 motors and
supervised hell, a 100,000 over 25 years, I know
formed coil DC motors. The problem sometimes is in
how to write it so people understand it and to make
sure I don't 1/2 inform someone or what ever. I offer
all my posts as my opinion and sometimes it is just
that, while others are hard learned lessons from
motors kicking my ass accross the shop and then back
again 8^o
I also try to sort an individual issue vs. repeated or
pattern issues as "nuetral" as I can. I have no stock
in any of the brand names so I just call it like it
is.
I believe that your 9" motor falls under the
individual heading. I get a call from time to time
with minor concerns on both Warp and ADC's (I've
caught a few mistakes myself) but in general if your
product sucks you don't stay around very long not to
mention us being such a tight word of mouth group.
As far as having a high comm bar that's not something
that goes away so unless you turned that comm it
wasn't a high, or lifted bar. More than likely they
forgot to seat it or they pulled the brushes to check
for seat, and didn't re-stone, or something got jared
or damaged during freight. If in fact you turned that
comm, I conceed and stand corrected.
On Richard Rau's Warp9 I also thought the holder gap
was a tad wide, wider than their lift counterpart. I
suspect they do this to make sure the brush maintains
good flow through the holders. In low voltage useage
the sheetmetal holders are known to warp inward and
grab the brush if overheated. Richards motor purred
like a kitten both ways so there was no issue I could
see with said gap.
Both V and U undercutter slots have pros and cons, I
prefer the U type but then I hand dress them afterward
to remove any missed mica or rough edges. More work
but nice uniformly deep slots. The V slots make sure
you get all the mica out on the top but as the comm
wears you start running into thin mica walls which
become thicker as the comm wears. Mica is very
abrasive to brushes and will begin eating them fast.
This leads me to brush grades. In general the softer
the brush the faster it wears but the less the comm
wears out. The harder the brush the more comm wear
you'll get and well an arm is more expensive than a
brush set 8^) There are better grades than others and
like yours (wasn't it like 500.00 a set?) can get
spendy for your average Joe so to speak. In general
the H-100 grade has become almost the norm in DC
motors in general, as it does have a nice range of
charatristics and does well all and all.
As to the brush chipping. Not sure what that's about
honestly never seen it. I get my brushes bulk and
they ain't all kit glooves as they throw em into the
bag. I get a lot of blemish chipped edges and again
wonder if this is not at least a possible cause.
As a possible worst case uh oh I did test a motor one
of my guys built and he hadn't sanded the comm after
undercutting it. Well that sucker had some comm
issues and probably had some brush chipping. Ohh ya I
chomped on that guy for days 8^)
As far as your GE motor goes I've been eagerly reading
your updates and would love to see a pic or 10, lol.
I do have to say though that they make my turn around
look pretty good 8^P
Anyway I hope I didn't affend just wanted to chime in
and help out, and make sure someone didn't tear their
new motor down and enamal the inside housing 8^)
As far as coating it once the coils are installed I
highly advise it as it not only locks EVerything down
but also prevents rust build up and makes it more auto
enviroment friendly as they drive in rain or what not.
As to a standard pretest of a motor, check for shorts
to steel, test all fastener connection (don't jab the
screwdriver into the comm testing the brush screws).
Test it on 12 volts (make sure it's blocked or you're
holding it good). For 99.9% of the people they'll
find it's ready to install, the other.1 will be really
glad they caught that loose screw. Be cautioned
though a lot of warranty claims turn out to be self
inflicked. Like when you mount the motor make sure
the bolts don't run into the motor fan 8^o stuff like
that.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Re-post:
Sorry if it a duplicate but I haven't seen the EV list get 2 hours
behind on sending a post for quite some time...
I just got my shiny new Manzanita Micro PFC20 charger a yesterday!!
I want to get this thing maintaining my Buggy batteries but I have a
question. On the output side there is an Anderson connector and a
unused green ground wire. Since my charger case won't be tied to the
chassis of the buggy (seeing as how its fiberglass) should I connect
the green wire of the output to frame ground?
Thanx,
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I usually get a chuckle out of the "less maintenance" thread. For a similar
sized vehicle, EVs are going to have most of the same maintenance issues of
the glider they inherited from. It's just usually easier to maintain the EV
(though more time consuming) since the conversion is home-made. (If you
home-built a replacement engine, you'd probably be able to maintain it,
also.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:12 AM
Subject: RE: wall to road efficiency
> I think it depends on how you view the maintenance. As written below, I
> think we're comparing apples to oranges here. Which would you rather do:
>
> Cheap, easy, quick but frequent maintenance or Infrequent, costly,
> time-consuming maintenance?
>
> First of all, I just swapped out my batteries. Yes, it was costly but it
was
> -easy-. I was done in 45 minutes. 16, 69lb. batteries. Including cables.
>
> Adding water? If your charger is modern and efficient, you'll rarely have
to
> do this. The Lestermatic that I used on my old Comuta Van used to slam the
> batteries and I added water every 3-4 weeks. The modern charger I use now
> doesn't gas the batteries nearly as bad. I might add water every 2 months.
> That's a .78/gallon of Di water.
>
> Lastly, I don't think I can quantify the value of staying CLEAN while
> working on my EV. The lack of pollutants and hazmat lets me wash up in the
> bathroom sink using handsoap instead of in the basement using pumice.
After
> what I went through restoring my DeLorean, this is such a joy.
>
> Rich A.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > Fork lifts and golf cart users have to pay their maintenance people to
> > do this. They still find the EVs cheaper than ICEs.
>
> Perhaps in large fleets, but most bussinesses that I see with only one
> forklift usually opt for propane powered ones. I have to wonder why that
> is.
Peter: Our company made that fork lift decision based on cost. Not only were
propane powered FLs available used, but the electrics were special order.
Golf carts are a different deal. Many of the folks locally still prefer the
gas powered units, but some courses offer the electrics. It's less of a
hassle for the course manager, since they don't have to store gasoline and
the electrics are quieter... or so I was told.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey John,
>
> Any chance the camera crew provided you with any
> clips to tease us with??
> Or are they holding footage for their full length
> feature film about a guy in a Plasmaboy suit??
Hey Mike
I'm still not talking to John. Could you tell him
that next time he mounts a video camera inside the car
he should point it backwards. That way we'd be able
to see the competition the whole race and maybe EVen
that OMG look that must be on their face. He might
even be lucky enough to capture the still glowing
pieces of my shatterd heart as the Zombie runs over
them, can you tell him that for me?
Thanks
Jim Husted
I hate Wayland Electric
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike, Thanks for responding. I have noticed over a period of time that
there does not seem to be a lot of responses to items of this nature. I do
not really know if people on the List do not really care about pressing the
envelope of EV performance or not. I am not sure if it is apathy or
something else. John is by far the best orator on these adventures and this
subject and yet to see so little response seems to me to indicate little
interest. This actually may be the case now days. Several years back there
seemed to be quite a bit more interest in pushing the envelope of EV
development but hey, times change and we are now living in a world of
apathy. Note: purely my own opinions from my own observations. I am sure it
is not everywhere. I just happen to live in the US. It is not my fault where
I was born. For people born elsewhere please speak up on your opinions of EV
performance.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "MIKE WILLMON" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
Hey John,
Any chance the camera crew provided you with any clips to tease us with??
Or are they holding footage for their full length feature film about a guy
in a Plasmaboy suit??
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 10:41 pm
Subject: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Hello to All,
about the time I was maneuvering the big Isuzu service truck in
place,
Greg and his band of energetic camera toting high school video
students
arrived to help secure the area.
It's all caught on 4 cameras, including a car-cam securely
strapped into
the Zombie's passenger seat (check it out at the 'Photos' page).
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.17/730 - Release Date: 3/22/2007
7:44 AM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree Roger,
NEV's are not safe mingling in faster traffic.
They are niche vehicles, work fine in places like Vancouver where traffic
crawls, and collisions are more likely to be low speed.
Most existing NEVS have little headroom in power. Some you can add blowers
and be OK. But if dealers just start cranking them up willy-nilly with no
cooling upgrade there will be burnt motors and controllers littering the
downslopes of hills across the US.
And as Bob says, with some NEVs you can crank it to 35mph, but hit a hill
and they'll bog to 15 or less instantly. Wham! Their controllers haven't got
the current or the tiny pack is sagging.
Manufacturers may balk at the extra cost of upgrading across the board. But
if they do "higher speed models" just for the elevated states, there'll be
more confusion with cross-border re-sales.
- John
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:56 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: FAST(er) NEV's - Update HB 1820 Washington State
Randy Burleson wrote:
> This reads as if it is reasonable to drive 35 on a
> road with posted 45mph limits. Is it?!?!
That will undoubtedly vary from one situation and individual to another.
My experience using a NEV on 50kph (~30mph) and 60kph (~40mph) roads was
that I was seldom, if ever, unable to match the flow of traffic despite
the NEV's lower speed limit. I used the car to commute to/from work on
surface streets, so reasonable traffic volume and plenty of lights.
Often people don't appreciate just how much slower than the posted
limits they really travel even if they do zip up to the limit (or above)
between lights, etc.
> I'm all for these maximizing the utility of NEVs. If
> this is a silly law that artificially limits NEVs
> speeds beyond one which they can easily attain, then
> I support changing the law.
It really has nothing to do with what the vehicles are capable of
attaining; the low maximum speed limit applied to NEVs is a *safety*
issue. NEVs are *governed* to their low max speed; it isn't that they
are inherently incapable of exceeding these speeds.
Remember that the NEV vehicle class was created to allow these
'car-like' vehicles to be operated on public roads without having to
undergo crash testing. The low speed limit, and restricting their use
to roads with lower speed limits was intended to limit the amount of
carnage that would result when a NEV collides with another vehicle or
stationary object.
Personally, I think is irresponsible to legislate the ability for these
vehicles to be operated at higher speeds or on higher speed roadways
(where they can and will be struck by 'normal' vehicles travelling at
higher speeds) without first evaluating the ability of the vehicles to
protect the occupants in this environment and perhaps legislating in
additional safety requirements or performance standards to ensure an
adequate level of protection is provided.
NEVs aren't required to be crash tested, but the Canadian government got
samples of a few and did just this, then presented the videos of the
tests. One very popular NEV when subjected to a frontal crash (at
either the standard 30mph or its 25mph max, I don't recall which),
disintegrated completely; there was no crush zone behaviour, the impact
would have been fatal for occupants. Another NEV subjected to the same
test did exhibit progressive crush zone behaviour, however the seats
ripped free of their mountings, again turning this into a fatal event.
A significant difference between these and a moped-like vehicle that can
exceed 25mph is that NEVs are designed to appear car-like, and consumers
may not appreciate the difference in safety standards applied to NEVs.
It is not at all unlikely for a consumer to strap an infant or child
seat into a NEV...
I think that more sensible legislation would be to continue to restrict
NEVs to roads with speed limits of 60kph/40mph maximum, but allow the
NEVs to travel at speeds up to 50kph/30mph instead of the present 25mph.
And, if the legislation doesn't presently allow for it, provide the
ability for NEVs to cross roads with posted speed limits in excess of
60kph/40mph. NEVs will never work for everyone, but they don't have to.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*********START OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT***********
Topic: Battery Management Forum
Date: Saturday, Mar, 24, 2007
Time: 10 am to 12 noon.
Site: Alameda First Baptist Church
1515 Santa Clara Ave, Alameda
Visitors welcome, open to the public.
Electric Vehicle are quite simple mechanically,
compared to gasoline vehicles. The main challege is
the amount of energy storage carried in the battery
pack and how that energy is released and restored
through driving (discharge) and recharging. Many
methods have been used to manage and monitor energy
usage.
By far the easiest to manage have been the flooded
lead-acid (PbA) batteries. These types of batteries
typically require minimal monitoring since state of
charge (SOC) is proportional to resting battery
voltage. The main challenge is checking and refilling
the water levels within the batteries, since water is
lost during the end of charge and over time. Jim Ramos
of American Battery Company in Hayward, a Powerstride
and US Battery distributer, will be presenting some
affordable systems to semi-automating the battery
watering process.
Additional monitoring tools have be the E-meter or
Link-10 by Zantrex, which seems to be out of
production. Other passive monitoring systems can be
used, such as voltage and amp meters, and some people
have created visual guages.
We will have a panel of members to lead discussion on
various monitoring practices and instrumentation, and
where monitoring sytems are headed for managing energy
usage on the more complex Nickel and Lithium based
battery technologies.
Additional topics:
* Review of last month's Annual National Meeting.
* Update EPRI plug-in Sprinter hybrid.
* Next month's EV Rally and Display at Diablo Valley
College, Pleasant Hill/Concord.
EVs will be on-hand and informal Q&A can take place in
the parking lot after the meeting.
See you there.
http://www.ebeaa.org
*********END OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT***********
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*********START OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT***********
Topic: Battery Management Forum
Date: Saturday, Mar, 24, 2007
Time: 10 am to 12 noon.
Site: Alameda First Baptist Church
1515 Santa Clara Ave, Alameda
Visitors welcome, open to the public.
Electric Vehicle are quite simple mechanically,
compared to gasoline vehicles. The main challege is
the amount of energy storage carried in the battery
pack and how that energy is released and restored
through driving (discharge) and recharging. Many
methods have been used to manage and monitor energy
usage.
By far the easiest to manage have been the flooded
lead-acid (PbA) batteries. These types of batteries
typically require minimal monitoring since state of
charge (SOC) is proportional to resting battery
voltage. The main challenge is checking and refilling
the water levels within the batteries, since water is
lost during the end of charge and over time. Jim Ramos
of American Battery Company in Hayward, a Powerstride
and US Battery distributer, will be presenting some
affordable systems to semi-automating the battery
watering process.
Additional monitoring tools have be the E-meter or
Link-10 by Zantrex, which seems to be out of
production. Other passive monitoring systems can be
used, such as voltage and amp meters, and some people
have created visual guages.
We will have a panel of members to lead discussion on
various monitoring practices and instrumentation, and
where monitoring sytems are headed for managing energy
usage on the more complex Nickel and Lithium based
battery technologies.
Additional topics:
* Review of last month's Annual National Meeting.
* Update EPRI plug-in Sprinter hybrid.
* Next month's EV Rally and Display at Diablo Valley
College, Pleasant Hill/Concord.
EVs will be on-hand and informal Q&A can take place in
the parking lot after the meeting.
See you there.
http://www.ebeaa.org
*********END OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT***********
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tony,
What about making series strings and tying the strings together with a fuse
in each (plus a diode?)
If you use a second set of diodes for charging, then you have completely
isolated any problems in a shorted cell while you can still charge and
discharge through all strings.
The voltage difference between the charge and discharge points will tell you
if there is a string not playing nice, normally it should only be the
voltage drop of two diodes.
How much current does each string need to deliver?
Tesla Motors' Roadster has about 60 parallel strings if I take the nr of
cells (6000+) and divide that by the voltage that I expect they are running
(300+) so they probably have some 100 cells in series, though their BMS may
break it down in smaller sections.
Each string in the Roadster is probably capable of delivering around 10A.
(6000 x 3.4V x 10A = 200kW)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tony Hwang
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:09 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: ARGGG, destroying expensive lifepo4 cells. :( Need a "button" fuse.
Hi all,
Does anyone know if there exists a "button" fuse, where each contact of the
fuse is opposite of each other? Sort of like a coin lithium cell? The reason
why I'm searching for them is to protect cells in parallel from a failed
cell.
So, I'm trying to see if lithium iron phosphate 18650 cells can be used in
parallel/series in a 4S5P pack.
I bought 21 cells from www.batteryspace.com, and fiddled with them. I
accidentally shorted two of them! They got hot and dumped full power for
about 10 seconds or so. Drats, one was ruined (fails in a shorted state),
the other, seemed ruined (very very low voltage, like .3 volts) but after a
day, it charged up fine. Cool, I thought. So at least I still have 20 "good"
cells. I mark the ruined but revived cell.
I wired up a 4S5P pack using lifepo4 cells from www.batteryspace.com. I put
it through a charge/discharge cycle on my charger, it works fine! Then I
charge it again, and notice it comes up as 9V only. ACK! So it turns out
that the "ruined but revived cell" failed short again, and it took out the
other 4 cells in parallel with it! Now I'm left with 15 cells, and 6 ruined
cells, at almost $7 apiece, this experiment is getting expensive. :(
I'm thinking it might be wise to wire up a fuse with each cell, but the
logistics of wiring that up seems daunting. Is there any fuse that is like a
button cell, that I can just put on the "+" end of each 18650? I've googled
and all I've found were SMT fuses, which are too small. I've thought of
maybe using glass fuses, but the glass would probably crack inside the pack.
- Tony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is called "BMS".
Measure amps in and amps out and you know where the battery is with its SOC
compare to voltages to compensate for long-term offsets.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 2:29 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: NiMH Battery Packs in Parallel
I believe that the Toyota Prius cycles its NiMH cells between 20% and 80%
full, so their system must have some means of determining when a cell is
about 80% full.
Bill Dennis
Mick Abraham wrote:
> Keetlist said:
>
> "Would it work to put the charger on a timer and set the voltage to
> only 90% of full?"
>
> Mick says: The voltage on Ni-MH rises when the recharge begins but
> then levels off and stays pretty flat until the cells are highly
> charged. Then the cells heat up a bit and the voltage on the string
> actually drops. Many Ni-MH chargers look for that drop in voltage to
> signal the charger to terminate the recharge. I don't think you could
> define "90% of full" based on a charger setpoint voltage or the battery's
peak voltage during recharge.
> Some of the (surprisingly sophisticated) chargers that are used in the
> remote controlled toy aircraft world can clock the number of amp-hours
> delivered to the pack during recharge. If one accurately knew the
> amount of amp-hours removed from the pack during the discharge and one
> then did some accurate battery math, and one then closely monitored
> the ah-returned counter on the charger, the charge could be manually
> terminated after X ah had been restored. That's several big ifs,
> however, so it sounds like a great way to ruin some expensive cells. A
> recharge routine with "set it and forget it" simplicity would be better
for me.
>
> Mick Abraham
> www.abrahamsolar.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can't wait Chip! See you there;)
Regards, Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 11:37 AM
Subject: 2007 Power of DC EV Racing Challenge
Hi Everyone,
The 2007 Power of DC will be June 2-3, 2007 in Hagerstown, Maryland
This year we are going all the way and will have an EV AutoCross,
ScooterCross, Range Rally, Show-n-Shine, and our classic NEDRA Power of
DC drag race all held in beautiful Western Maryland thanks to the efforts
of Mike Harvey and wife Tracy.
On Saturday June 2 is the AutoCross, ScooterCross, Range Rally and
Show-n-Shine. The AutoCross will be held at Hagerstown Community College.
Tracy has also layed out an 8.5 mile Range Rally Event held near the
campus.
Then on Sunday June 3 is our Classic NEDRA Power of DC Drag Race to be
held at Mason-Dixon Dragway.
There is no cost to enter the AutoCross and other EVents on Saturday,
however donations are appreciated. Cost to enter the drag strip on Sunday
is $25.00 which is the Mason-Dixon Dragway entry fee.
We are also going to have a Dinner and Reception. Trophies will be
awarded to the winners. We will have a raffle and Jim Husted is donating
one of his famous 6.7 inch motors.
For more information on this exciting EVent visit our website at
http://www.powerofdc.com
To Register, fill out our convenient Registration Form at http://
www.powerofdc.com/lets_race.html
A downloadable file of the EVent flyer is available at http://
www.powerofdc.com/powerofdc_flyer.pdf
We are also looking for sponsorship so if you are interested just let us
know. Thanks to ThunderStruck Motors for signing on as a sponsor.
See ya in June!!
Chip Gribben
Power of DC
http://www.powerofdc.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
240-687-1678
Mike Harvey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Joe Lado
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
