Sorry, got interrupted and accidentally sent it. On Jun 26, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>> Yes, an energy carrier. I won't argue efficiency with you. > > But that is the biggest problem of Hydrogen and the reason > that everyone who understands Physics draws the conclusion > that there is no future in Hydrogen as fuel because it is > worse than just using the source energy (that what is used > to generate the Hydrogen in the first place). > Converting to Hydrogen is just creating a loss and a headache. > (headache of containing and transporting this aggressive element) > So, except for a few niches, there is no place for Hydrogen. I will ignore the condescending comments. If you are saying that using natural gas directly in an ICE as opposed to converting it to Hydrogen is a more efficient use, I would tell you that you are missing my point. I will take the blame for not communicating well enough. The purpose of the ZEV mandate is to transform the fleet to *Zero* emission vehicles. We have public health standards that mandate these reductions. There is no method that I am currently aware of that can directly use natural gas (in an automobile) without combusting the fuel. Right there you have lost the design objective. Emissions are no longer zero. > > Of course, in a world void of scientists and filled with people > who make vision papers based on someone else's fantasies, > there is only one bright future - everything will be converted > over to Hydrogen soon. I'll ignore the condescending and insulting comments you've just made about the physicists and other scientists working on this. > >> Better hope that H2 is not a loser, because then we are all losers. > > Hope has never changed the laws of Physics that I am aware of. > > That is the reason that you get such a push-back on this list, > because there are plenty people here who do not have an "opinion" > about Hydrogen (opinions have also not changed Physics) but who > *understand* how efficiency work in terms of Physics and therefor > they can *calculate* that Hydrogen is a losing proposition. > > It was a clear red flag when you avoided at all cost to discuss > the technical details or Physics, you are now even blatantly saying > that you do not want to discuss that topic. > Either you *know* that this is the biggest problem of FCV and you > prefer to avoid that subject, or you are truly unaware of the > hot air balloon that is being passed around and which will cost the > Californian taxpaers many millions of dollars without resuting in > anything that will actually help to improve clean air. > All the more troubling that you, 30 year clean air activist, > are pursuing this non-option with so much vigor!!! > > For the record - I have no vested interest in or outside Hydrogen. > I just have a BEV as daily driver and I am passionate about > energy efficiency, because the best way to clean up pollution > is to avoid creating it in the first place. And my background > allows me to understand laws of Physics, which often leads me to > clash with opinions that are based on anything but reality. > > In case I came across as argumentative, please excuse me, I am > passionate about these subjects but I am always open to discuss > the data and the Physics of possible solutions to evaluate what > would be the best possible solution and which one does not fly. > I have heard too many fantasies about Hydrogen Fuel Cell that it > sometimes gets me on my soapbox. > If you do not want to discuss data or Physics of FCV then I will > take that you have a reason to hide the truth about Hydrogen's > dark side and possibly you have a vested interest - I have seen > those. But I have also seen Fuel Cell development councils that > cancel the meetings on Hydrogen Fuel Cell, because they saw the > light that it was just a hype, misleading governments worldwide > to try and generate grants without chance of ever producing an > energy efficient solution that would make a business case work. > I applaud people who are flexibel and transparent enough to take > new input and realize that they must change something, because > what they were doing was not good. > > I, for one, hope that we can avoid strugging through H2 as loser > and immediately go for a viable option as future. > > Cor van de Water > Chief Scientist > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com > Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info > Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 > > > >>> >>>> Most often that's >>>> natural gas (and IIRC the process produces more CO2 than getting an >>>> equivalent amount of energy by directly burning the gas). >>> >>> The process produces less than the petroleum we're trying to replace > it with. >> >> Citation needed. >> >>> And the tailpipe emissions (the main driver for the regs) are zero. >> >> If the anti-BEV crowd can flog the old canard that BEVs just transfer >> emissions to powerplant stacks, then they should also note that FCVs >> transfer emissions to the hydrogen production plants. Do they? >> >> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA >> EVDL Administrator >> >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not >> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my >> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
