I can say the same about you. You may have had some cells drop but not all or even most. All they papers I quote are from scientific journals or NASA presentations.
I read the complete design of the Boeing APU battery and even read about the company who designed their charger burning down the lab while testing it. Here's a paper titled self-discharge but if you read it you will see it's about capacity fade. http://www.cswang.umd.edu/publications/papers/35.pdf Sent from my iPad > On Jun 19, 2015, at 4:48 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> > wrote: > > Paul, > > It appears that you are not learning from experience and data that is shared > with you, > so I am going to stop responding to your posts. I have shared that I have a > pack of > used LiFePO4 cells in my garage and I have measured its self discharge and I > have seen > the cells go down towards zero and obviously I did not want to destroy the > pack, so > as soon as they went below 2.5V due to self-discharge, I recharged them. > Capacity was > good, so it looks like it is not the capacity fade that causes self-discharge > apparently. > > But I wonder why you are on this group and continue to spout information that > does not > match with the data that people with many years of experience have gathered? > > Are you here to learn about batteries? Then do yourself a favor and please > stop talking and start listening. > It appears that you are new to battery charging since you are confusing > different terms and specs > for battery chemistries. > > Are you here to tell everyone why everyone is wrong and you are right? > You might find that not too many people will continue to listen to you, > unless you document your tall claims with peer-reviewed and reproducible data. > Over many decades of battery development there have been too many guys that > made > claims that were too good to be true and that is exactly what everyone found > out eventually. > > Don't stop reading papers but always question whether it is scientifically > proven what they claim, > because anyone can type words, but it is an entirely different matter to have > a proof of a new theory > and your claim of "no self discharge" will need a lot of proof, seeing that > actual field data > tells a different story. > > I am not here to warn you or to tell you what you must do, > just to say that you can expect people to stop listening and filter your > messages into the spam folder > if you continue on the path that you were on these last 2 days. > I have tried to give input and set some of your claims straight, > but I need to stop investing my time because I judge that it has become a > waste of time > since you appear not to listen to correction. > Bon voyage. > > Cor van de Water > Chief Scientist > Proxim Wireless > > office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water > XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info > www.proxim.com > > > This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and > proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this > message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized > use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is > prohibited. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Paul Dove via EV > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 2:29 PM > To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery > > I haven't seen any science from BMS advocates yet. They make lots of > assumptions based on nothing. > > Besides I have a BMS I just don't have a cell level BMS. > > I haven't heard the theory on self discharge yet? > > Or the rate at which they discharge or an example of someone putting one on > the shelf for 5 years then measuring the voltage and capacity. Save for Jack > Richard who boldly did it and published a video. > > I read a lot of papers and I only found one that talks about self discharge > although I don't agree with the way they use the term because what they > really verify in the paper is capacity fade. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 19, 2015, at 3:34 PM, Lee Hart via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: >> >> Ben Goren via EV wrote: >>>> I am curious as to how Paul came to his belief. >>> >>> His methodology is inadequate to the task -- rather like using a >>> roadside truck scale to weigh the first four people to pass by and >>> concluding that all humans weigh exactly 200 pounds. >>> >>> Lee, in comparison, is akin to a long-time general practice physician >>> who's kept aggregate patient records of vital statistics for decades, >>> and concludes that...80% more likely to need treatment... >> >> I wouldn't put it that starkly. I'd say it's more like "Joe Blow" buying a >> new ICE car, and at 3000 miles he sees that the oil level on the dipstick is >> still the same. So he concludes that "it doesn't use a drop of oil"! >> >> So he skips the oil changes. 2 years and 30,000 miles later, the car is >> towed to the dealer, three quarts low and with a wrecked engine. >> >> On the other hand, his mechanic "Crusty" swears by 3000 mile oil changes. >> That's not always necessary; but it's good insurance. People who do this can >> expect to go 200,000 miles before the engine is using any significant amount >> of oil. >> >> So it's more like the blind men and the elephant. Each sees the same data, >> but come to different conclusions because of their perspective. >> >> I'm not some big company; I'm a lone wolf working in his basement. I have to >> get my batteries cheap; as bargains, or donations, or old, or used, or on >> loan so I don't dare hurt them. That means they aren't likely to be prime >> stock. But that's a good thing! I get to see batteries at their WORST, not >> just at their best. >> >> Another thing... >> >> "The storage battery is one of those peculiar things which >> appeals to the imagination, and no more perfect thing could >> be desired by stock swindlers. Just as soon as a man gets >> working on the secondary battery, it brings out his latent >> capacity for lying." -- Thomas A. Edison >> >> "There are few industries with more BS than the battery >> industry. -- Elon Musk >> >> Battery information has been unreliable for a hundred years. 99% of what you >> read is either lying to make money, or the mindless parroting of what >> someone else said. >> >> This mean you should treat everything you read about batteries as BS >> ("baloney sandwiches", as Carl Sagan said). You have to *test it for >> yourself*! This is tedious; but not particularly difficult or expensive. >> >> And, you need to keep a skeptical mind. Just because one does X doesn't mean >> that they all do X. It's as if there's a devious little demon inside, doing >> everything in his power to trick you. With only a few quick tests, he's >> likely to lie to you (and get away with it)! So you need to be diligent, and >> repeat your tests in different ways to pry the truth out of him. "Oh yeah? >> *Prove* it!" >> >> -- >> The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there >> before. -- Roy Spence >> -- >> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com >> _______________________________________________ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
