I think the Fraggles were right; humans are properly understood as silly
creatures.
For my part, I do not see avoiding Libera.chat as "distance for
distance's sake". It is recognizing that both sides of this split are
hyperventilating about something of very small significance, that being
IRC infrastructure. I've never given it 2 minutes of thought before
this, and may not ever again. It just doesn't matter that much. Which
network has the best chance of dissolving back into the background
noise? That's all I want.
Concerning who has the best "explicit values statement", again I say,
small potatoes. Has OFTC, or any of the other choices, ever shown any
evidence of being discriminatory? What would that even mean in the
context of an IRC host? It is a moot point, and it need not be elevated
into some issue of prime importance. Is this what life has been reduced
to? Is this as good as it gets?
Dan
Daniel Wells
Head of Technology Services
Hekman Library, Calvin University
616.526.7133
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Evergreen-general
<[email protected]> on behalf of Mike
Rylander <[email protected]>
*Sent:* Friday, May 28, 2021 8:36 AM
*To:* Evergreen Discussion Group <[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [Evergreen-general] Time to move to a different IRC network?
I want to echo what Jason says entirely in his position and reasoning.
Either would be fine, but libera.chat has some benefits, both
technical-adjacent and non-technical, IMO.
I would also add that I pretty strongly disagree with the argument
that we should distance ourselves for distance's stake, or to avoid
the appearance of taking sides. This isn't analogous to a divorce
where we are the children, it's a choice we're making for our project
WRT infrastructure and, all else being equal, the explicitly stated
values of the competing options should be weighed in that decision.
I appreciate libera.chat's more explicit values statement embodied in
the anti-discrimination policy and believe that aligns with the values
of the Evergreen project. That said, OFTC is a fine choice as well,
and they have taken the recent step of pushing the "private" flag to
all users, forcing users to opt out of some identity-masking features
rather than opt in, which is a good step, I think.
--
Mike Rylander
Research and Development Manager
Equinox Open Library Initiative
1-877-OPEN-ILS (673-6457)
work: [email protected]
personal: [email protected]
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=Iy4xfNOf5ibqgq8mGEeMJssoAUawoywMEJOoTxZ3Tsc&e=
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=Iy4xfNOf5ibqgq8mGEeMJssoAUawoywMEJOoTxZ3Tsc&e=>
On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 6:29 PM Jason Boyer <[email protected]> wrote:
Given the last week or so I don’t think there’s any question about whether we
should move, only where we should land.
I wouldn’t be upset either way but I lean toward libera.chat for a few reasons:
1. Since it is basically all the same staff as freenode they’re used to
managing a large network
2. With the (very recent) addition of a web interface they’re basically at
feature parity with what we expect
3. I like the fact that they have anti-discrimination policies as Galen
mentioned, and having gone through this ordeal I suspect their management
policies will be quite robust.
4. Less importantly but still notable, several other FOSS projects have already officially moved there, such as Ansible, PostgreSQL, emacs, ZNC, Code4Lib, and I’m sure several others. Most of these I’ve observed incidentally or saw mentioned elsewhere; I suspect a number of large projects are already represented there
should one actually search them out.
Jason
--
Jason Boyer
Senior System Administrator
Equinox Open Library Initiative
[email protected]
+1 (877) Open-ILS (673-6457)
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=b3dtSR6MnjXEyoWFsYh4cRqJ2abPY-_0WD5khQTcmHo&e=
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=b3dtSR6MnjXEyoWFsYh4cRqJ2abPY-_0WD5khQTcmHo&e=>
On May 26, 2021, at 11:21 AM, Galen Charlton <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi,
The #evergreen IRC channel has been hosted on the Freenode network for years.
However, recently 14 staff members at Freenode have quit in response to a
dispute over ownership of the network [1], [2].
A number of open source and other communities, including Code4Lib, have migrated to other IRC networks such as Libera.Chat (which was founded by the departed Freenode staff members) and OFTC (which has been around for years and hosts, among other groups, #koha). However, Freenode has apparently started locking channels that
mentioned a move away to Libera in their channel topics. [3]
I believe that the current proprietors of Freenode are actively undermining Freenode as a place for open source communities to discuss their work without interference, though it is not clear to me why they find commercial or other value in doing so. Consequently, I suggest that we consider a move to either Libera.Chat or OFTC.
#evergreen channels currently do exist on both networks.
Here are some pros and cons I see:
Libera.Chat
---------------
Pro: Run by the same people who have kept Freenode running smoothly for over a
decade. Has a policy against discrimination based on faith, ethnicity, sexual
orientation, sex or gender expression, disability, or age. [4]
Con: Doesn't offer a built-in web client, although it can be used with other
web IRC services.
OFTC
-------
Pro: Has been successfully used by the Koha community for years. Comes with a
built-in web chat client.
Con: Their policy does not appear to have active anti-discrimination clauses.
[5]
I don't believe that this is a super-urgent issue - please enjoy the Evergreen
Conference this week! - but I would like to solicit opinions on whether to
leave Freenode and, if so, whether to move to OFTC or Libera.Chat. Discussion
about the IRC network is taking place on the Freenode #evergreen IRC channel
as well.
I want to acknowledge that a discussion of alternatives to IRC would be valid,
but I suggest that if anybody wants to take that up, that it be done in
parallel to the more limited question about moving #evergreen.
[1] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__arstechnica.com_gadgets_2021_05_freenode-2Dirc-2Dhas-2Dbeen-2Dtaken-2Dover-2Dby-2Dthe-2Dcrown-2Dprince-2Dof-2Dkorea_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=N6jgdUdmgvihlV8tLsReFx93tspMSRf9uwoSWu0Qv6M&e=
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__arstechnica.com_gadgets_2021_05_freenode-2Dirc-2Dhas-2Dbeen-2Dtaken-2Dover-2Dby-2Dthe-2Dcrown-2Dprince-2Dof-2Dkorea_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=N6jgdUdmgvihlV8tLsReFx93tspMSRf9uwoSWu0Qv6M&e=>
[2] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lwn.net_Articles_856543_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=B5M-BDFcuKELmAH6-9NYzJ0C3WcedZK883GUY5kZxxM&e=
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lwn.net_Articles_856543_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=B5M-BDFcuKELmAH6-9NYzJ0C3WcedZK883GUY5kZxxM&e=>
[3] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__news.ycombinator.com_item-3Fid-3D27287750&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=kmYuDt2OV-fBQv1i4DeJ1fwpUEwAfP07bx8FWVga9cI&e=
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__news.ycombinator.com_item-3Fid-3D27287750&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=kmYuDt2OV-fBQv1i4DeJ1fwpUEwAfP07bx8FWVga9cI&e=>
[4] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__libera.chat_policies&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=quNzOHPh2Hm7mNrI8ost_xz8Z4rICJy8aMCNuAwCWnA&e=
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__libera.chat_policies&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=quNzOHPh2Hm7mNrI8ost_xz8Z4rICJy8aMCNuAwCWnA&e=>
[5] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.oftc.net_Network-5FPolicy_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=xhMA7sLZcMn2n6UNcrXUip9MZ4HOTwNQkifvSlbwOag&e=
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.oftc.net_Network-5FPolicy_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=xhMA7sLZcMn2n6UNcrXUip9MZ4HOTwNQkifvSlbwOag&e=>
Regards,
Galen
--
Galen Charlton
Implementation and IT Manager
Equinox Open Library Initiative
[email protected]
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=u0E0CEPXuR8VUR7Iquwnj_DqIPvj9L0mI1iGZlgGCX0&e=
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