FWIW I had a brief chat with one of the administrators of OFTC and they said they are open to pull requests on their policy. I have opened one adding the following language: "Discrimination based on faith, ethnicity, sexual orientation, sex or gender expression, disability, or age is not permitted."
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 12:18 PM Chris Sharp <[email protected]> wrote: > I have a preference for Libera because it seems like the logical place to > land along with the other Free/Open Source Software projects that have > already done so, including Code4Lib. I don't have much experience with > OFTC so I don't have a strong opinion for or against it. > > On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 1:19 PM Jason Stephenson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi, all. >> >> I want to add that I, like Dan, am not too concerned about explicit >> values statements. I don't think they matter for much. Actions speak >> louder than words. >> >> Jason Stephenson >> >> On 5/28/21 9:39 AM, Dan Wells wrote: >> > I think the Fraggles were right; humans are properly understood as >> silly >> > creatures. >> > >> > For my part, I do not see avoiding Libera.chat as "distance for >> > distance's sake". It is recognizing that both sides of this split are >> > hyperventilating about something of very small significance, that being >> > IRC infrastructure. I've never given it 2 minutes of thought before >> > this, and may not ever again. It just doesn't matter that much. Which >> > network has the best chance of dissolving back into the background >> > noise? That's all I want. >> > >> > Concerning who has the best "explicit values statement", again I say, >> > small potatoes. Has OFTC, or any of the other choices, ever shown any >> > evidence of being discriminatory? What would that even mean in the >> > context of an IRC host? It is a moot point, and it need not be >> elevated >> > into some issue of prime importance. Is this what life has been >> reduced >> > to? Is this as good as it gets? >> > >> > Dan >> > >> > >> > Daniel Wells >> > Head of Technology Services >> > Hekman Library, Calvin University >> > 616.526.7133 >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > *From:* Evergreen-general >> > <[email protected]> on behalf of Mike >> > Rylander <[email protected]> >> > *Sent:* Friday, May 28, 2021 8:36 AM >> > *To:* Evergreen Discussion Group < >> [email protected]> >> > *Subject:* Re: [Evergreen-general] Time to move to a different IRC >> network? >> > I want to echo what Jason says entirely in his position and reasoning. >> > Either would be fine, but libera.chat has some benefits, both >> > technical-adjacent and non-technical, IMO. >> > >> > I would also add that I pretty strongly disagree with the argument >> > that we should distance ourselves for distance's stake, or to avoid >> > the appearance of taking sides. This isn't analogous to a divorce >> > where we are the children, it's a choice we're making for our project >> > WRT infrastructure and, all else being equal, the explicitly stated >> > values of the competing options should be weighed in that decision. >> > >> > I appreciate libera.chat's more explicit values statement embodied in >> > the anti-discrimination policy and believe that aligns with the values >> > of the Evergreen project. That said, OFTC is a fine choice as well, >> > and they have taken the recent step of pushing the "private" flag to >> > all users, forcing users to opt out of some identity-masking features >> > rather than opt in, which is a good step, I think. >> > >> > -- >> > Mike Rylander >> > Research and Development Manager >> > Equinox Open Library Initiative >> > 1-877-OPEN-ILS (673-6457) >> > work: [email protected] >> > personal: [email protected] >> > >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=Iy4xfNOf5ibqgq8mGEeMJssoAUawoywMEJOoTxZ3Tsc&e= >> > < >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=Iy4xfNOf5ibqgq8mGEeMJssoAUawoywMEJOoTxZ3Tsc&e=> >> >> > >> > >> > On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 6:29 PM Jason Boyer <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Given the last week or so I don’t think there’s any question about >> whether we should move, only where we should land. >> >> >> >> I wouldn’t be upset either way but I lean toward libera.chat for a few >> reasons: >> >> 1. Since it is basically all the same staff as freenode they’re used >> to managing a large network >> >> 2. With the (very recent) addition of a web interface they’re >> basically at feature parity with what we expect >> >> 3. I like the fact that they have anti-discrimination policies as >> Galen mentioned, and having gone through this ordeal I suspect their >> management policies will be quite robust. >> >> 4. Less importantly but still notable, several other FOSS projects >> have already officially moved there, such as Ansible, PostgreSQL, emacs, >> ZNC, Code4Lib, and I’m sure several others. Most of these I’ve observed >> incidentally or saw mentioned elsewhere; I suspect a number of large >> projects are already represented there >> > should one actually search them out. >> >> >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Jason Boyer >> >> Senior System Administrator >> >> Equinox Open Library Initiative >> >> [email protected] >> >> +1 (877) Open-ILS (673-6457) >> >> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=b3dtSR6MnjXEyoWFsYh4cRqJ2abPY-_0WD5khQTcmHo&e= >> > < >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__equinoxOLI.org_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=b3dtSR6MnjXEyoWFsYh4cRqJ2abPY-_0WD5khQTcmHo&e=> >> >> > >> >> >> >> On May 26, 2021, at 11:21 AM, Galen Charlton <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> The #evergreen IRC channel has been hosted on the Freenode network for >> years. However, recently 14 staff members at Freenode have quit in response >> to a dispute over ownership of the network [1], [2]. >> >> >> >> A number of open source and other communities, including Code4Lib, >> have migrated to other IRC networks such as Libera.Chat (which was founded >> by the departed Freenode staff members) and OFTC (which has been around for >> years and hosts, among other groups, #koha). However, Freenode has >> apparently started locking channels that >> > mentioned a move away to Libera in their channel topics. [3] >> >> >> >> I believe that the current proprietors of Freenode are actively >> undermining Freenode as a place for open source communities to discuss >> their work without interference, though it is not clear to me why they find >> commercial or other value in doing so. Consequently, I suggest that we >> consider a move to either Libera.Chat or OFTC. >> > #evergreen channels currently do exist on both networks. >> >> >> >> Here are some pros and cons I see: >> >> >> >> Libera.Chat >> >> --------------- >> >> Pro: Run by the same people who have kept Freenode running smoothly >> for over a decade. Has a policy against discrimination based on faith, >> ethnicity, sexual orientation, sex or gender expression, disability, or >> age. [4] >> >> Con: Doesn't offer a built-in web client, although it can be used with >> other web IRC services. >> >> >> >> OFTC >> >> ------- >> >> Pro: Has been successfully used by the Koha community for years. Comes >> with a built-in web chat client. >> >> Con: Their policy does not appear to have active anti-discrimination >> clauses. [5] >> >> >> >> I don't believe that this is a super-urgent issue - please enjoy the >> Evergreen Conference this week! - but I would like to solicit opinions on >> whether to leave Freenode and, if so, whether to move to OFTC or >> Libera.Chat. Discussion about the IRC network is taking place on the >> Freenode #evergreen IRC channel as well. >> >> >> >> I want to acknowledge that a discussion of alternatives to IRC would >> be valid, but I suggest that if anybody wants to take that up, that it be >> done in parallel to the more limited question about moving #evergreen. >> >> >> >> [1] >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__arstechnica.com_gadgets_2021_05_freenode-2Dirc-2Dhas-2Dbeen-2Dtaken-2Dover-2Dby-2Dthe-2Dcrown-2Dprince-2Dof-2Dkorea_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=N6jgdUdmgvihlV8tLsReFx93tspMSRf9uwoSWu0Qv6M&e= >> > < >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__arstechnica.com_gadgets_2021_05_freenode-2Dirc-2Dhas-2Dbeen-2Dtaken-2Dover-2Dby-2Dthe-2Dcrown-2Dprince-2Dof-2Dkorea_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=N6jgdUdmgvihlV8tLsReFx93tspMSRf9uwoSWu0Qv6M&e=> >> >> > >> >> [2] >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lwn.net_Articles_856543_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=B5M-BDFcuKELmAH6-9NYzJ0C3WcedZK883GUY5kZxxM&e= >> > < >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lwn.net_Articles_856543_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=B5M-BDFcuKELmAH6-9NYzJ0C3WcedZK883GUY5kZxxM&e=> >> >> > >> >> [3] >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__news.ycombinator.com_item-3Fid-3D27287750&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=kmYuDt2OV-fBQv1i4DeJ1fwpUEwAfP07bx8FWVga9cI&e= >> > < >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__news.ycombinator.com_item-3Fid-3D27287750&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=kmYuDt2OV-fBQv1i4DeJ1fwpUEwAfP07bx8FWVga9cI&e=> >> >> > >> >> [4] >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__libera.chat_policies&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=quNzOHPh2Hm7mNrI8ost_xz8Z4rICJy8aMCNuAwCWnA&e= >> > < >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__libera.chat_policies&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=quNzOHPh2Hm7mNrI8ost_xz8Z4rICJy8aMCNuAwCWnA&e=> >> >> > >> >> [5] >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.oftc.net_Network-5FPolicy_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=xhMA7sLZcMn2n6UNcrXUip9MZ4HOTwNQkifvSlbwOag&e= >> > < >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.oftc.net_Network-5FPolicy_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=xhMA7sLZcMn2n6UNcrXUip9MZ4HOTwNQkifvSlbwOag&e=> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Galen >> >> -- >> >> Galen Charlton >> >> Implementation and IT Manager >> >> Equinox Open Library Initiative >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=u0E0CEPXuR8VUR7Iquwnj_DqIPvj9L0mI1iGZlgGCX0&e= >> > < >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.equinoxOLI.org&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=u0E0CEPXuR8VUR7Iquwnj_DqIPvj9L0mI1iGZlgGCX0&e=> >> >> > >> >> phone: 877-OPEN-ILS (673-6457) >> >> direct: 770-709-5581 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Evergreen-general mailing list >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.evergreen-2Dils.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_evergreen-2Dgeneral&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=42sln1Jj9EbrQfN65K18AbYsMgHScRgg0NFcrrRoI0c&e= >> > < >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.evergreen-2Dils.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_evergreen-2Dgeneral&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=42sln1Jj9EbrQfN65K18AbYsMgHScRgg0NFcrrRoI0c&e=> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Evergreen-general mailing list >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.evergreen-2Dils.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_evergreen-2Dgeneral&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=42sln1Jj9EbrQfN65K18AbYsMgHScRgg0NFcrrRoI0c&e= >> > < >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.evergreen-2Dils.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_evergreen-2Dgeneral&d=DwIGaQ&c=4rZ6NPIETe-LE5i2KBR4rw&r=LAgsHjAkdLiSDjEY2jDUJg&m=9rxPL6kMfZeXJZEh6V7_OcHouQR2pQhenQlh0pKYMMk&s=42sln1Jj9EbrQfN65K18AbYsMgHScRgg0NFcrrRoI0c&e=> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Evergreen-general mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > >> 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