On 24 May 2012, at 22:27, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, May 24, 2012 Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Reason is not nominating anyone by itself. I am doing the nominating
Are you doing the nominations for a reason? There are only two
possible answers.
>Reasons don't care what I nominate, but I do.
And if you were constructed differently you would care about
different reasons.
>In the sense that I make determinations, but if that's true than
being deterministic means having free will, and so the word loses
all meaning.
Finely! I thought this day would never come but at last you start to
get the point, at least for a instant.
> who can *generate new reasons themselves*.
Did you generate new reasons for a reason? There are only two
possible answers.
> rigid logic is not sufficient the phenomenological reality of the
actual universe we inhabit.
You don't know any science and now you admit you believe even logic
is unimportant, and yet you still expect to unlock the secrets of
the universe just by sitting in your armchair and thinking, and you
don't even have to think very hard because the colloquial terms that
are key to your ideas "don't need to be put under a microscope".
Well good luck with that little endeavor, you're going to need it.
> There is no such thing as winning or losing an argument without
free will.
I knew it could not last, for a instant you understood that the
noise had no meaning but now you're right back to saying "free
will", and cows still say "moo" and ducks still say "quack".
> You can say you had no reason for writing that but I know it isn't
true
Interesting, you may not think my reasons are good but you think
they are reasons nevertheless; so you think I'm deterministic.
> I have free will to decide [...]
Did you decide for a reason? There are only two possible answers.
> That sounds like you are making a free will choice
A choice made for a reason or a choice made for no reason. There is
no third alternative.
> out of a personal preference
The reason I have that personal preference is because that's the way
my brain is wired, or perhaps there was no reason at all and thus
random.
> What reason do you have for wanting to take credit for 'personally
thinking'?
So you think I'm deterministic, you want to know what caused me to
do what I did. Well, if there was a reason it was because that is
the way my brain is wired, of course there may not have been a
reason at all, it could have been random.
> What is this 'personally think' ASCII noise?
From this and other things you have said I gather that you believe
that thinking and the fact that things happen for a reason or the
don't is contradictory, but I'll be damned if I understand why that
is supposed to be true. I don't see the connection.
> What reason do you have to believe that?
Once again you demand to know the cause of my belief, you want to
know the reason behind it. Once again you assume I am deterministic,
and no doubt in your next breath you will insist that I am not
deterministic, and not random either!
> Don't you see that you are using free will to choose to deny free
will?
The "idea" is not good enough to deny, free will is so bad it's not
even wrong. And I choose to say that free will is gibberish for a
reason or I say free will is gibberish for no reason, there is no
third alternative.
> The argument ended as soon as you said "I don't want..."
I don't want for a reason or I don't want for no reason, there is no
third alternative.
> I have reasons.
Then you are deterministic.
> Reasons do not have me.
I don't know what that means so this is a case where there may
actually be a third alternative. Reasons do not have you for a
reason, or reasons do not have you for no reason, or "reasons do not
have you" is gibberish.
> You take consciousness for granted and then deny that it exists.
What the hell are you talking about?? Consciousness is the one thing
I'm absolutely certain of, my consciousness anyway, but I don't see
what that has to do with the price of eggs, I thought we were
discussing determinism and randomness.
>> In the first place illusion is a perfectly real subjective
phenomena and in the second place it's true, we really do want to do
some things and not do other things.
> So then we agree, the feeling is real.
Certainly.
> Do you imagine that meaning and intelligence are not part of the
universe?
No.
> We made the laws out of our own free will
Cannot comment, don't know what ASCII string "free will" means.
> Whatever happens, happens.
I think that's probably true, the alternative, whatever happens
doesn't happen just does not ring true to me somehow.
> Why or how could anything try to interfere with that in a
deterministic universe?
The question is moot, the universe is not deterministic, some things
happen for no reason.
> Then we are deterministic.
> Sure, but we also have free will.
Cannot comment, don't know what ASCII string "free will" means.
But you said that you do believe in "will". I kind of agree that
"free" does not add anything to "free-will". I tend to take it as some
emphasis that the will, to be manifested, needs some degrees of
freedom. I do agree with your point against Craig's notion of free-
will, for I believe in will, and even in a libertarian sort of "free-
will" (which is just will, + freedom, imo) and, as you know, I am a
compatibilist: (free)-will needs determinacy, and randomness cannot
add an epsilon of (free)-will. (And this can be justify by iterated
self-duplication in the comp frame).
Now, I am not sure why you say that the universe is not deterministic.
With Everett QM, it is deterministic. It seems not deterministic is
each branch or term of the superposition we are in, but this concerns
only a first person view of the universe.
Now, with comp, the physical universe is no more a well defined object
that we can take for granted, and the basic reality is as
deterministic as a UD, or a part of arithmetic, which can be said
deterministic, in some sense.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
