On 23 Oct 2012, at 15:17, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Bruno Marchal
Numbers and calculations are not subjective,
Right.
for they are mindless.
Hmm... OK.
Which means they can't experience anything.
They're dead in the water.
This is too ambiguous. I can say that you are right. Numbers cannot be
conscious, but if comp is correct, that is if the brain is some local
relative machine, then you have to accept that consciousness is
associated to complex (infinite) arithmetical relations, involving
self (Bp) and person or knower (Bp and p).
You just beg the question by assuming that machines cannot be
conscious or support consciousness. The math explains that tehere are
reason to guess the contrary, as machines have both a 3p self, and an
1p self, when accepting the classical theory of knowledge (axiomatized
by the S4 modal logic).
Bruno
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/23/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-22, 12:49:30
Subject: Re: The circular logic of Dennett and other materialists
On 21 Oct 2012, at 21:51, Roger Clough wrote:
On 20 Oct 2012, at 14:04, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Bruno Marchal
This is also where I run into trouble with the p-zombie
definition of what a zombie is. It has no mind
but it can still behave just as a real person would.
But that assumes, as the materialists do, that the mind
has no necessary function. Which is nonsense, at least
to a realist.
Thus Dennett claims that a real candidate person
does not need to have a mind. But that's in his
definition of what a real person is. That's circular logic.
BRUNO: I agree with you on this.
Dennett is always on the verge of eliminativism. That is deeply wrong.
Now, if you want eliminate the zombie, and keep comp, you have to
eventually associate the mind to the logico-arithmetical relations
defining a computation relative to a universal number, and then a
reasoning explains where the laws of physics comes from (the number's
dream statistics).
This leads also to the arithmetical understanding of Plotinus, and of
all those rare people aware of both the importance of staying rational
on those issue, *and* open minded on, if not aware of, the existence
of consciousness and altered consciousness states.
ROGER: OK. As long as the computer stays 3p, then anything is
possible.
You can't. Machines have 1p, personal memory, and personal relative
incarnation and relation with some truth.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1p = experiencing (only humans can do this).
What?
Are you saying that dogs and cats have no 1p?
3p(1p) = a way of saying that a human can publicly describe his
experience.
He cannot really do that, but he can communicate something, and
then the others, by using their own experience can, or cannot relate.
1p(3p) = a way of saying that a human can experience any description
or proposition (by himself, by a computer, by others)
OK.
3p = a description or proposition given by a human, or by a machine.
OK.
3p(3p) = computer "knowledge" of a proposition or description
I really don't know what it means to say that a computer knows
something.
With comp you know perfectly well what it means, as comp is the
hypothesis that you are a computer. So a particular case of what "a
computer knows something" is what it means for you know something.
Ah! A computer can only know things by description, but not by
acquaintance.
Forget the current man-made computer. We talk about a special sort
of machine. There is nothing in the brain that a computer cannot
imitate, at some fine grained level. So if you believe that brain
can do something that acomputer can do, you will have to give a 3p
description of the brain which is not Turing emulable. Then, first
you are still stuck with a pre 3-things, so it will not help you for
the mind-body problem, and second, well, nobody find in Nature (as
opposed in math) non Turing emulable things in our neighborhood,
except, importantly, for the souls of machines and humans, and for
their detailed material reality.
The soul of the machine, is not a machine, from the point of view of
the machine. Machine's naturally believe that their are not machine,
especially when growing ego.
Only humans can know things by either route.
Looks like a dogma. frankly, a very sad dogma. The Bp and Bp & p
arithmetical modalities already exemplifies why and how the machines
(actually, not the universal computer, but the L?ian believer) is
sensible to the two routes.
Humans can be cute, and terrible, but for human and non human, it is
always a sort of error of declaring oneself superior, especially in
feeling and subjective matter. You don't know that.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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