On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:03:31 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: > > Craig, > > > > You build an automaton, place it and turn it on, and from that point in > time forward > > the automaton reacts to acceptable information all on its own. >
Reacts, yes, but it isn't informed by the reaction. > > > You contradict yourself – - I don’t think it has to be human – machines > only help > > non-machines to interpret - > Where was the contradiction? > - and if the human point is important, then surely > > you will accept your definition to be that it must be biological life, for > a machine > > cannot be alive. > A living being can be used as a machine, but it is not defined by that function. > > A machine is either a machine or it is not a machine – a machine cannot be > both > > a machine and not a machine at the same time. > A creature can be more than a machine, but still act as a machine in many ways. Craig > > > wrb > > > > *From:* everyth...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> [mailto: > everyth...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>] *On Behalf Of *Craig Weinberg > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 05, 2013 10:14 AM > *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> > *Subject:* Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information > > > > > > On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 12:03:28 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: > > Craig: > > > > You statement of need for a human to observe the > > pattern is the smoking gun to indicate a misunderstanding > > of semiotic theory on your part. > > > I don't think that it has to be humans doing the observing at all. > > > > > Specifically, you don’t need a human; a machine will do. > > > A machine can only help another non-machine interpret something. I don't > think that they can interpret anything for 'themselves'. > > > > > Not all machines are man-made. > > > True, but what we see as natural machines may not be just machines. > Man-made machines may be just machines. > > Craig > > > > wrb > > > > *From:* everyth...@googlegroups.com [mailto:everyth...@googlegroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Craig Weinberg > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 05, 2013 5:24 AM > *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information > > > > > > On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 2:06:20 AM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: > > There is information (I take information to be a > manifestation of entropy) and it is always represented > in the form of a pattern (a distribution) of the units > of mass/energy of which the Universe is composed. > > > I can agree that information could be considered a manifestation of > entropy, to the extent that entropy is necessary to provide a contrast > space for a distribution. To string an ellipses together, you need one dot, > repetition, space, and a quality of measurement which yokes together the > three dots aesthetically. Beyond that, you also need human observer with > human visual sense to turn the distribution into a 'pattern'. Without that, > of course, even distribution cannot cohere into "a" distribution, as there > is no scale, range, quality, etc to anchor the expectation. If we are a > microbe, we may not ever find our way from one dot to the next. > > I > think that semiotic signs are simply specific bits > of information; I will use the terms synonymously. > > Information has meaning only within context. For many > people, context is taken to mean one piece of information > as compared to another piece of information. I do not > take this meaning of context when I discuss semiotics. > Instead, I take semiotic context to be the acceptor of > the information. Hence, all meaning resides a priori > within information acceptors. > > > Agree. Well, transmitters form the signs from their own sense of meaning > as well. That's how we are having this discussion. > > > > What you know you have always known; the sign merely > serves to bring that knowledge to your conscious mind. > > > Right. I mean it might be a bit more complicated as far as novelty goes. I > don't know if the state of unconscious information is really what I "have > always known" but that this particular constellation of meanings reflects > the Totality in a way that it is only trivially novel. Like if you hit a > jackpot on a slot machine - that may not have happened before, but the slot > machine is designed to payout whenever it does. The jackpot already exists > as a potential and sooner or later it will be realized. > > > > That you may have intention and so comport your delivery > of information to another acceptor has not bearing upon > the subsequent acceptance or rejection of that information > by the target acceptor. Acceptance or rejection of > information is determined solely by the accepting or > rejecting context (acceptor). > > > Agree. But the converse - the acceptor can only accept information which > has been included for delivery by intention (or accidentally I suppose). > > > > Your mere presence sends information regardless of some > conscious intent. Indeed, your absence does equally > deliver information, for the target acceptor will see > a definite difference in available information sources > whether you are present or not. > > Consider a line worker in a bean processing plant where > the task is to cull *bad* dried beans from *good* dried > beans as they go by on a conveyor belt; the *bad* beans > are removed by hand, so the line worker is constantly > looking for *bad* beans while constantly being aware > of the fact that not many of the beans are *bad*. The > consciousness is aware of both that which is present > and that which is not present. > > > Yes, the expectation is key. I call that the perceptual inertial frame. > There is an accumulated inertia of expectations which filters, amplifies, > distorts, etc. > > > Further, what any information that you emit means to > you is irrelevant to the meaning that another may take > for that information. > > > Then how does art work? Music? Certainly it is pretty clear that what > emitting Iron Man meant to Black Sabbath is different from what emitting > the Four Seasons meant to Vivaldi. I agree that the receiver bears the > brunt of the decoding, but why deny that the broadcaster can do intentional > encoding, when they know the audience? > > > Indeed, it is via reliance upon > -Cultural Norms- that your point regarding Morse Code > becomes relevant. It is perfectly reasonable for an > ornery person to simply reject such norms and act > otherwise; your expectation originates in you, not > the targets of information you broadcast. > > >>The truth of your statement is no reply to my claim, > >>that how another receiver of signs responds is > >>irrelevant to your knowledge, save the one case of > >>conveyance of knowledge between semiotic units; > >>where you intend for knowledge to be conveyed. In > >>that case, it is behooving of the sender to ensure > >>that the receiver can receive and understand the > >>message. > > > >I'm not sure what you are bringing up here, but I > >would say that my point is that all messages have > >multiple levels of reception, perhaps as many levels > >as their are receivers in the universe. At the same > >time, if we are assuming human senders and receivers > >and a content range which is highly normative and > >practical (i.e. Morse code alphabet rather than > >emoticons, inside jokes, etc), then the information > >entropy is reduced dramatically. > > > >Maybe you can give me an example of that you mean > >by the irrelevance of the receiver's knowledge. Does > >that include the expectation of the possibility of > >there being a receiver? > > > >>In all other cases, the recipient response is > >>irrelevant; all values and measures originate in > >>the sender of the message. > > > >I would tend to agree with that, although the > >expectation of the recipient response informs the > >motives, values, and measures of the sender - > >otherwise there would be no message being sent. > > > > > >>The receiver of transmitted information is > >>irrelevant to the mechanics of that transmission. > > > >I'm not sure what you mean. Again, maybe an example > >would help. We expect that human audiences can see, > >so we have TV screens to provide optical stimulation. > >If we didn't have eyes, there would be no mechanism > >of TV. > > > > The word should have been *reception* - receipt of > information (acceptance of a sign) is a function of > the value that the acceptor puts on that sign. That > value is most certainly not tied to the delivery > mechanism, even if some delivery mechanisms are > preferred over others. > > > Ah, so the medium is not the message? It's not so clear. If the delivery > mechanism is preferred, why doesn't that affect the value. In college I had > been using an old printer with a poor quality print head (was like a > spinning rubber stamp of type letters at that time) that was badly degraded > but still legible. When I got a new computer and printer, right away my > grades went up across the board. The nice new presentation looked clearer > qualitatively, making it easier to read, but no more possible to read. > > > > What matters to information acceptance is disposition > of the acceptor to that acceptance. If the acceptor > does not *like* the sign, it will reject the sign; of > course, this means that all signs are accepted just > long enough to decide if they are sufficiently meaningful > or not; if so, they are accepted else they are rejected. > > > Agree, but why doesn't the formatting (as above) influence how much the > acceptor might like the sign, and do so in a way which can be anticipated > and optimized? For example, it seems to me like a good idea to me to have > the car washed before you take it in to be repaired, or to be well dressed > when you go to the doctor. Appearances can be manipulated to a desired > effect. Even if you can't always be right about how it will be received, > it's not impossible to stack the deck in your favor. > > Craig > > > > > > >>wrb > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. > To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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