On Tuesday, September 3, 2013 8:57:13 PM UTC-4, Dennis Ochei wrote: > > Craig, > > What UV looks like will depend on how it is transduced into the nervous > system. I could add a new opsin into your blue cones and it would appear to > be a shade of blue. >
Sure, we can look at an infra-red camera too and see IR light as green or some other color. That isn't what I'm talking about. I am talking about new primary colors. > Or, I could achieve the transduction in such a way that UV doesn't confuse > with blue. In which case UV will look different from other colors *in way > you cannot describe because you don't have access to how you condition your > behavior based of the intensity of UV light. * > It wouldn't matter if you did have access to how you condition your "behavior based on the intensity of the UV light". Color cannot be described, it can only be experienced directly. I don't want you to waste our time trying to tell me what I already know. http://multisenserealism.com/thesis/light-revisited/is-visible-light-electromagnetic/ > > I've told you in a rudimentary form what is required to build a system > that has drives and motivations, from parts that are inanimate. > Not at all. You are projecting drives and motivations onto a system that is unconsciously serving a function that serves your drives and motivations. > Nature has constructed such a device using 302 neurons. It learns, and it > has motivations. > The neurons are an expression of the motivations, not the other way around. > Is your argument here that if we model the nematode deterministically, its > ability to learn and its biological drives will vanish like smoke? > Does a rabbit's taste for carrots vanish just because we model him as Bugs Bunny? Yes. Models, cartoons, figures, functions, shapes, descriptions, simulations...none of them can have any sense of being or feeling. Bugs Bunny is not a rabbit. He is a symbol which reminds our psychology of particular themes which overlap with rabbit themes. > Because if so, I'd bet good money that you're wrong. > Sure, I'd love to take that bet. I was going to say $10,000 but I don't think that you are going to pay that when you lose. What amount sounds good? > Drives are traceable to electrochemical gradients "trying" to resolve > themselves, driven by thermodynamic laws. Logic is how the pipes are > connected up, desire is the water pump. > I agree that microphysical events correspond to microphenomenal experiences, but that does not mean that all that has to happen to scale up an inanimate object's thermodynamic motives to mammalian quality emotions is that it must be configured in the correct shapes. That is an assumption, and a seductively popular one, but it is 100% wrong. Using the hypothesis of sense as the sole universal primitive, we should anticipate that the relevant qualifier of sensitivity is not structure but experience. Giving your cat a computer will not make him computer literate, and dressing a water pump up in human clothes does not cause a human. The clues are all around us. No machine or program has every succeeded in being anything but completely impersonal and psychologically empty. > Furthermore, deterministic does not equal logical. There is no logic > behind why opposites attract, even though this logically leads to like > dissolving like. Whatever axioms there are in this universe, they are not > logically justified. > Determinism doesn't explain why opposites attract, but given that they do in some particular context, determinism is the logic of the consequences of that attraction. Determinism doesn't address everything, but whatever it does address is considered to behave according to the logic of the precedents which have been established. If determinism was not logical, how could it claim to determine anything? Craig > > > On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Craig Weinberg > <whats...@gmail.com<javascript:> > > wrote: > >> >> >> On Tuesday, September 3, 2013 3:42:53 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: >>> >>> On 9/3/2013 12:32 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: >>> > Telmo and Brent, >>> > >>> > The Humean quote sums it up nicely. You can think of a human as a >>> collection of desires >>> > and a reasoning process that arbitrates between and attempts to >>> realize them. In the >>> > process of reasoning, one might bring about new desires, but reasoning >>> is always >>> > employed by desires one currently has. >>> > >>> > Just couple days ago I was trying futilely to logically deduce what it >>> is that I should >>> > want to do, I realized that "logic is the servant of desire," (im not >>> quite as eloquent >>> > as hume, it seems...) and to find a logically justified want is >>> futile. Desire is >>> > inherently illogical. >>> >>> I'd say "extralogical". That doesn't mean though that your desires >>> aren't caused (by >>> evolution, by metabolism,...). Many of them may even be predictable - >>> that's how >>> advertising agencies make a living. >>> >> >> *Your* desires can be included in your experience by evolution, etc, >> provided that desire in general exists as a possibility in the universe. No >> amount of statistical reproduction of inanimate objects or unconscious >> machines could cause a desire to appear out of nowhere though. Could it? >> Why would it? >> >> Craig >> >> >>> >>> > Turns out Hume beat me to this insight by quite a bit, but I suppose >>> he had a head start, =p >>> > >>> > It seems that if we were completely logical, we would simply cease to >>> function >>> >>> Dostoevsky beat you to that one, "If everything on Earth were rational, >>> nothing would >>> happen." But he had a head start too. :-) >>> >>> >>> Brent >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/jDy5twbibkQ/unsubscribe >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >> everything-li...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. >> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. 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