On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > On 09 Sep 2013, at 11:58, Telmo Menezes wrote: > >> Hi Alberto, >> >> On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 10:55 AM, Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> >>> I think that there are real progress that can be even measured in terms >>> of >>> entropic order. That a man embodies more structure and organization than >>> a >>> bacteria is objective and measurable, and it is a product of more >>> emergent >>> levels of evolution. In concrete the human being includes the eucariotic >>> level, the multicelularity level and human society level, that are >>> aggregations of coordinated individuals to achieve an individuality of an >>> higher level. These levels are absent in bacteria . >> >> >> Ok, there's an arrow of complexification, that's undeniable. I'm not >> convinced that Darwinism alone explains that. One of the reasons for >> my scepticism is the failure of ALife models to replicate unbounded >> complexification. My favourite attempt in this domain is the Echo >> model by John Holland -- which is beautiful but didn't work in this >> sense. There's also Tierra/Avida, where you get a lot of interesting >> stuff but no unbounded complexification. >> >> One idea I heard but don't know whom to attribute to is this: >> evolutionary complexification is just an artefact of the simplicity of >> the initial state. The idea being that the laws of physics inherently >> contain a "pressure" towards a certain level of complexity and that >> evolution is just following the path of least resitance, in a way. It >> is then conceivable that there is a state of equilibrium that we >> haven't reached yet and that complexification will halt at some point. >> This is wild speculation, of course, but I like to ponder on this >> hypothesis. > > > Of course the universal dovetailing has unbounded complexity,
Or even maybe the Mandelbrot set. A friend of mine uses that as an example of artificial life. I suspect you might agree. > but evolution > (including the rise of the physical laws) is observed only in the first > person selective selection. But could we have simulated evolution (in a simulation that we understand) and unbounded complexity? Telmo. > Bruno > > > >> >>> What is not true is that human beings are more "adapted" than bacteria. >>> That >>> is not true. Because there is no objective and absolute measure of >>> adaptation. It ever depends on the concrete environment, and varies a >>> lot. >> >> >> Humm... I think ecologists are able to estimate the likelihood of a >> species going extinct. I'd argue that this could be taken as a measure >> of adaption. >> >> Telmo. >> >>> >>> 2013/9/9 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 5:52 AM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sunday, September 8, 2013 4:42:02 PM UTC-4, telmo_menezes wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 chris peck <chris_...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Darwinism is not a testable scientific theory, but a metaphysical >>>>>>>>>> research program". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't have any problem with Popper's comments here. I see no >>>>>>>> reason >>>>>>>> whatsoever for 'Popper fans or fans of philosophers of science' to >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> concerned in the slightest. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 08.09.2013, at 22:28, John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> Yes I know, fans of Popper are not concerned in the slightest with >>>>>> their >>>>>> hero making that moronic statement, and Popper called himself a >>>>>> philosopher; >>>>>> and that is exactly how philosophy gets a bad name. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> People misunderstand Popper here. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Apparently even Popper misunderstood Popper because, to his credit, he >>>>>> admitted he was wrong about Darwin; most other philosophers would >>>>>> rather eat >>>>>> ground glass than admit they were wrong. It's just a pity that it took >>>>>> this >>>>>> great philosopher of science 119 years after the publication of "The >>>>>> Origin >>>>>> Of Species" to figure out that Darwin was a scientist. I guess >>>>>> philosophers >>>>>> are just slow learners >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Furthermore, in regarding natural selection as untestable he >>>>>>>> followed >>>>>>>> in the footsteps of many Darwinists. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Should a good philosopher be following in somebody's footsteps or >>>>>> should >>>>>> he tell him he's going in the wrong direction? >>>>>> >>>>>>>> It was quite common to think that the concept of 'survival of the >>>>>>>> fittest' involved circular reasoning and was therefore tautological. >>>>>>>> ie. >>>>>>>> 'fittest' is defined as 'those that survive' and so 'survival of the >>>>>>>> fittest' amounts to saying 'the survivors survive'. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Darwin gave a new meaning to the word, "fittest" means passing on more >>>>>> genes that endure (survive) to the next generation than somebody who >>>>>> is >>>>>> less >>>>>> fit. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Darwin knew nothing about genes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes, and evolutionary fitness has nothing do with the quantity of >>>>> winning >>>>> genes - this is a Eugenicist misinterpretation of evolution. Fitness is >>>>> about the circumstantial appropriateness of mutations, not about >>>>> hereditary >>>>> supremacy. A sudden climate change makes entire classes of 'more fit' >>>>> genes >>>>> 'less fit' over night. Evolution is not a race or striving for success >>>>> through superior engineering - that is utter horseshit. >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes. A common error is to equate evolution with progress -- one sees >>>> that a lot in mainstream use of the terms. I believe that >>>> neo-Darwinism is a great scientific theory, and that it does explain >>>> the origin of biological complexity, namely humans. But it is easy to >>>> misinterpret it or take it too far. For example, by saying things like >>>> "human beings are more evolved than bacteria" which is nonsense. >>>> >>>> Telmo. >>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Craig >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups >>>>> "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an >>>>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an >>>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Alberto. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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