On 09 Nov 2013, at 17:56, John Mikes wrote:
One more remark:
the " H O N E S T " heirs? super-rich they may be? Do you find an
honestly accumulated heirloom to inherit? Did they work productively/
honestly to be 'rich'?
That's an interesting question. It is a particular case of "can we
give money?".
I don't know. Surely parents can make gifts to their children, but
even that is not clear to me, and in some case a child can got the
feeling that his affection is bought, and that is perilous for the
genuine affection he can have.
Money has common point with energy and love. That needs to be handled
with some caution. Inheritance? Why not? In some case that might work
better than an expensive non working social security taxes system. I
think you raise a very difficult question which has no global answers
and depends on local traditions and way of life.
Honesty relies in clear basic (voted) rules, and their application to
all people, where they apply.
Also, there is a problem with lobbying, and we should find a way to
separate money and politics, but when some proportion of cheaters have
power, that can take time.
Bruno
JM
On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 11:50 AM, John Mikes <jami...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 06 Nov 2013, at 17:25, meekerdb wrote:
On 11/6/2013 12:58 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
There is nothing wrong being rich, unless the money is stolen
money, and that's the case today.
There's nothing morally wrong with being rich, but it creates an
ethical problem. Being much wealthier than others bestows a lot of
power. If there is no effective government (like parts of Somalia)
then the rich hire a personal army to protect their property.
Where there is government, the police protect their property and
the rich attempt to control the government through propaganda and
buying influence. So long as the rich are not so rich as to live
in a different 'world' than the middle class and they are
relatively diverse this works OK. But the system seems to be
unstable in that the rich can and do use their wealth and power to
get more wealth and power - and not necessarily productively. So
those who inherit wealth tend to gain even more wealth. Society
needs to do something to stabilize the system and prevent the
increasing concentration of wealth.
I completely agree. The problem is that with money, you can produce
more money in two ways, honestly or dishonestly....
Bruno, before I touch the "basics" - could you explain what you
would consider to produce M O R E money HONESTLY? Same question to
Brent's text above: that the rich can and do use their wealth and
power to get more wealth and power - and not necessarily productively.
I don't see a 'productive' way how 'the rich' get more wealth and
power by using their wealth and power. It is exploitation, political
scam, bribery, terrorism, etc. - all in the framework of accepted
"morals" of the system (either capitalist, or fascist).
I recall some basics (I am no 'Socialist') from Marx:
NOBODY owns Nature so any natural products (mining, farming, or
other) are valued 'honestly' as recompensation for the efforts
invested into the natural process "for getting money" - honestly -
productively, without exploitation. Does any mine-owner work on his
product? Does any Farming conglomerated stockholder work honestly on
the crop? I do not advocate the CEO to sweep the floor: there is
tasks' - organization in which everyone has a "role to perform", but
are the roles proportionately paid for? Mao tried to switch 'roles'
temporarily - he failed. Lenin realized that such just distribution
is impossible in today's society and postulated FIRST the
development of som "COMMUINST" MAN who lives up to such 'just
distribution' of benefits - surely realizing the impossibility of
such development. All other ("Socialist?") countries suffered from
the same malaise as the (democraticly?) capitalistic ones: the
leadership and its power usurped wealth, acquired MONEY and POWER on
the back of the 'not so fortunate' exploited majority.
Alas, I have no solution to remedy the situation.
Re-hire Dr. Guillotine is unrealistic.
JM
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
On 06 Nov 2013, at 17:25, meekerdb wrote:
On 11/6/2013 12:58 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
There is nothing wrong being rich, unless the money is stolen
money, and that's the case today.
There's nothing morally wrong with being rich, but it creates an
ethical problem. Being much wealthier than others bestows a lot of
power. If there is no effective government (like parts of Somalia)
then the rich hire a personal army to protect their property.
Where there is government, the police protect their property and
the rich attempt to control the government through propaganda and
buying influence. So long as the rich are not so rich as to live
in a different 'world' than the middle class and they are
relatively diverse this works OK. But the system seems to be
unstable in that the rich can and do use their wealth and power to
get more wealth and power - and not necessarily productively. So
those who inherit wealth tend to gain even more wealth. Society
needs to do something to stabilize the system and prevent the
increasing concentration of wealth.
I completely agree. The problem is that with money, you can produce
more money in two ways, honestly or dishonestly. Once a few "fake
money" (based on a lie) appears, it corrupts the whole system, and
the society get pyramidal, with a higher gap between poor and rich,
and eventually this crush down.
We must think about a way to prevent that. Some state can play a
role. But we have to get rid of the bandits first, and there is an
easy way: legalize all drugs. Regulate them, and tax them
proportionally by the "real" harm (that is measured by statistics no
more confusing a -> b and b -> a) they do.
May be that is not enough. Prohibitionists should be judged. We have
to get spiritual or mature enough to understand that.
The state must ensure the fairness of competition among products,
their traceability, the presence of notice with the secondary
effects, etc. But the state has nothing to say about what is good or
not for any one. That's between you and you, with the help of your
shaman if you decide so, but it is your decision, to say "yes" or
"no" to this or that shaman.
Stopping prohibition will not solve all problems. But continuing
prohibition aggravates the situation, ... except for the super-
riches and the bandits.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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