On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 12:50 PM, <spudboy...@aol.com> wrote: > Chris, I just read a study by the U of Colorado, published in the Journal, > Bioscience, claiming that up to 1 million bats have been killed by green > energy wind turbines. The arrival of solar power, its decline in price, and > thus it will power all human civilization never arrives. >
Why would the decline in price of solar power mean it can never power all human civilization? The lower the price the better for its prospects for large-scale adoption, no? > Its what the math people call asymptotic, which in this case means, it > never achieves target, it never gets there. The same with nuclear fusion, > despite happy reports. It never gets there after decades of research. Thus, > it cannot be Relied Upon to substitute for Dirty energy sources. What might > prime the technological pump is the market place, where supply and demand > are invoked, and there is commercial reason to produce minus government > hand outs to crony companies, in Germany, and in the US. With tax payer > monies, these companies vanish, like farts in a high wind, like Solyndra > did. Unreliable substitutes are non substitutes. > It sounds like you are buying into the myth that Solyndra was somehow representative of government investment in solar power in general. It's not, the department of energy invested money in a large portfolio of clean energy businesses and most did well while a few like Solyndra did not, and then opponents of investing of clean energy cherry-picked an example of a failure. See these articles: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/05/energy-department-loan-guarantee-charts/64932/ http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/09/28/fox-puts-its-solyndra-blinders-on-again/190200 The second of the two articles mentions that "only 3 out of 26 loan guarantees dispersed under the Department of Energy's 1705 loan guarantee program have gone to companies that later filed for bankruptcy. One of those three, Beacon Power, is still operating, has repaid most of its loan guarantee, and rehired most of its employees." It also mentions at the bottom that Fox news is promoting the idea that declining prices of solar panels are bad for solar power in general (as opposed to just some individual manufacturing companies), so perhaps you got that puzzling idea above from Fox or some other conservative media source--but as the graph at the bottom of the article shows, solar installations (and the corresponding total energy output from solar) have surged in the last few years, probably thanks in part to government investment. In case you don't trust the left-leaning Media Matters site, here's a piece from Forbes magazine arguing for the overall success of government investment in clean energy so far, and for the important role played by such investment in promoting innovation in this field: http://www.forbes.com/sites/energysource/2011/09/02/solyndras-failure-is-no-reason-to-abandon-federal-energy-innovation-policy/ 'Solyndra’s failure, while unfortunate, is hardly an indictment of federal energy technology policy. Failure is to be expected with emerging, innovative companies, whether they are financed by the government or the private sector. The success of the Department of Energy’s Loan Guarantee Program (LGP) should thus be judged not by any one investment but by the performance of the entire portfolio. Critics have seized on the news of Solyndra’s bankruptcy to condemn the Department of Energy’s Loan Guarantee Program, which provided a $535 million loan guarantee in 2009. The National Review’s Greg Pollowitz writes that Solyndra’s failure shows “why the government should not play venture capitalist.” Yet the fact is that, when judged by its entire diverse portfolio of investments, the LGP has performed remarkably well. Indeed, with a capitalization of just $4 billion, DOE has committed or closed $37.8 billion in loan guarantees for 36 innovative clean energy projects. The Solyndra case represents less than 2% of total loan commitments made by DOE, and will be easily covered by a capitalization of eight to ten times larger than any ultimate losses expected following the bankruptcy proceedings. The broad success story of the LGP shows why federal investment in clean energy is necessary to help early-stage clean energy technologies achieve scale and reach commercialization. The inherent uncertainty in investing in novel technologies, coupled with the high capital costs and long time horizons, prohibits most venture capital funds from investing in large-scale clean energy projects. Financing tools and direct investment from the federal government can help bridge this well-known “Commercialization Valley of Death,” and the LGP is an effective way of doing that. Instead of “picking winners and losers,” as the program’s critics allege, the program actually reduces risk for a suite of innovative clean energy technologies and allows venture capitalists and other private sector investors to invest in the best technology. Rather than picking winners, the LGP enables innovative companies to compete in the marketplace, allowing winners to emerge from competition. And while Solyndra is shutting its doors, companies like SunPower, First Solar, and Brightsource Energy, which also received loan guarantees and other support from the federal government, are industry leading success stories.' Finally, here's an article that details many of the conservative media sources (many with major ties to the oil industry) that have been promoting the Solyndra story as an excuse to stop investing in clean energy: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/09/14/1016840/-The-Phony-Solyndra-Solar-Scandal > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris de Morsella <cdemorse...@yahoo.com> > To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> > Sent: Sat, Nov 9, 2013 12:12 am > Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World > > > > *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [ > mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com<everything-list@googlegroups.com?>] > *On Behalf Of *spudboy...@aol.com > *Sent:* Friday, November 08, 2013 5:49 PM > *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: Our Demon-Haunted World > > If you hold the Rational Optimist view aka Matt Ridley, people will act > altruistic much more, if they get a reward, then in they get jack. >>A > dictatorship of your own preference is suitable for many, but not for most. > Plus, think about pure materiality. If a cruel dictator has his goon point > a semi-automatic at each of our heads and demands of us to immediately > produce an energy source that will power his civilization for the rest of > his life, and unless we can produce this energy source, bang goes the gun. > I will shout shale gas or even tar sands. If you shout out sun and wind, > bang goes the gun against your skull. Why? Because even after decades of > work, even after daily advances, there's no city on earth that is now > powered by sun or win, were that it was so. My point is we cannot legislate > reality. I will take the marketplace with all its flaws versus coercive > government. Which would you choose? > > I do not subscribe to your Manichean world view, in fact I find it ill > reflective of the complexity and nuance of reality. You like to see things > in a either this or that kind of way, and maybe that works for you, but it > doesn’t work for me. > Are you really that certain you know your energy facts. Global installed > solar consumption went from 2.1 TWh in 2001 to 55.7 TWh in 2011; growing by > a factor of more than 20X in 10years; this is reflected in the growth in > installed capacity, which went from a little over 2GW of installed solar > capacity in 2001 to around 20GW of installed capacity in 2011. In fact > there is so much solar and wind electric capacity already installed in > Germany that on days which are favorable for wind and solar power, the > overabundance of supply can drive the wholesale price into sharply negative > territory. The market inverts and in order to shed load onto the grid – > when supply exceeds demand beyond the capacity of the grid to manage it -- > you need to pay the grid operators because the grid cannot accept any more > energy without becoming unstable – the grid is a balancing between > instantaneous supply and demand (act at the speed of electricity) The cost > per kwh of solar PV is following a Moore’s Law type progression in falling > costs and the dollar per kwh of solar PV are closing in on the cost of coal > generated electricity, which has been the least expensive (largely because > it can externalize hundreds of billions of dollars per year of costs > incurred by mining, and burning coal onto the commons). > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris de Morsella <cdemorse...@yahoo.com> > To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> > Sent: Thu, Nov 7, 2013 9:44 pm > Subject: RE: Our Demon-Haunted World > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: everything-list@googlegroups.com > > [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com <everything-list@googlegroups.com?>] > On Behalf Of spudboy...@aol.com > > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 4:26 PM > > To: everything-list@googlegroups.com > > Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World > > > > > > >>Not to be sarcastic, but probably yes. Money from bitumin brings money for > > research into environmental remediation. It also helps liberate people from > > pouring cash into the OPEC world, which seems to only inflame Muslim > > passions. Plus the Canadians are world class technologists and will likely > > invent more efficient engines, and also fund the green technologies that you > > crave. Theres a reason why poor nations do not do technology well. > > > > You have a cornucopian view that we can go on making horrible messes on this > > planet without worrying about the consequences because somehow it will all > > get magically remediated.... yeah like that actually happens in the real > > world. Remediation is a cost center NOT a profit center; it is done only to > > the minimum level necessary in order to stay just this side of the law. You > > are free to say whatever you want of course, but I find it difficult to > > believe your hypothesis that the very same humans who profit from raping the > > earth will -- after the fact and after they have lined their pockets with > > ill-gotten wealth -- will somehow do a 180 degree turn and start behaving in > > the altruistic noble manner you seem so certain they will. > > > > Are you saying that the Arabs would be happier if they had no oil wealth... > > that all this money has made them hopping mad? Green technologies are > > already proving themselves -- without your plucky Canadian tar sand > > billionaires (some of whom are Texans by the way) deciding to invest their > > profits in green technology -- as if they would. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Chris de Morsella <cdemorse...@yahoo.com> > > To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> > > Sent: Thu, Nov 7, 2013 3:29 pm > > Subject: Re: Our Demon-Haunted World > > > > Those plucky Canadians -- as you term them -- are criminally destroying vast > > swaths of Alberta turning it into a poisoned chemical saturated moonscape as > > well as sucking up vast amounts of water from other potential uses -- > > including agriculture. Will the bitumen sweated out of that sand be worth > > the ultimate costs to get it? > > > > > > On Thursday, November 7, 2013 11:24 AM, Jesse Mazer > > <laserma...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 9:50 AM, <spudboy...@aol.com> wrote:Fur > > sure, that was the truth. Now we got's shale gas, which seems to pay a lot > > better, is safer to go after, and is cleaner, carbon-wise. Unless you are > > buying into technological unemployment (robots, software) then we have to > > face the fact. BHO's Keynesian way has fallen on its ass and has stayed > > down, like a fighter throwing a fight, after a payoff. > > > > I've read Keynesians like Paul Krugman say that the level of stimulus was > > actually not enough by Keynesian standards (and too much went to tax cuts), > > but certainly the US economy with its level of stimulus did much better than > > most of the states that more thoroughly rejected Keynesianism and instead > > chose austerity in the midst of a recession, like the UK...see various > > graphs at http://graphsagainstausterity.tumblr.com/ (click on any graph to > > see the original article it came from) > > > > > > Increased government employment doesn't seem to generate tax revenue very > > well. > > > > Except government employment hasn't increased under Obama, it's actually > > been steadily decreasing during his presidency (apart from a brief spike > > when the decennial census was taken and they needed a lot of temporary > > census workers), due mostly to the Republicans in Congress, whereas under > > George W. Bush government employment was steadily increasing (this > > collapsing of the public sector is probably contributing quite a bit to the > > slow recovery). See the two graphs showing private sector and public sector > > jobs under Bush and Obama here: > > > > http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2013/04/public-and-private- > > sector-payroll-jobs-bush-and-obama.html > > > > > > > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Everything List" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving > > emails from it, send an email to > > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.to post to this group, > > send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.Visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.For more options, visit > > https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Everything List" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Everything List" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Everything List" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email > > to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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