From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2014 12:34 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Suicide Words God and Ideas
On 08 Feb 2014, at 20:06, Chris de Morsella wrote:
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2014 8:01 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Suicide Words God and Ideas
The invention of language was obviously of great benefit to the species
called Homo sapiens, but like all tools it is not perfect and sometimes the
brain can waste a great deal of processing power spinning its wheels over
questions of words rather than ideas. For example, a recent poll showed that
70% of people in the USA thought that if a dying patient agreed then doctors
should be allowed to "end the patient's life by some painless means";
however only 51% thought that doctors should be allowed to help a dying
patient who wanted to die "commit suicide". Another example would be those
who DON'T believe in a omnipotent omniscient intelligent conscious being who
created the universe and is responsible for morality but DO believe in
"God".
Well said John - and in this (if not on all things)
>> Even on his argument, that nobody understand but him, against step 3?
Then I invite you to attempt to explain it to us.
Was not speaking to any specific instance of communication (or attempted
communication perhaps) but rather weighing in on the somewhat unpredictable
outcome of symbolic communication when the very symbols employed can when
parsed through some other brain/mind create unexpected outcomes based on a
different understanding or emotional resonance with some word phrase. The
thing I ask is do words exist outside the mind? Sure they can be recorded
outside the mind and words form a good part of our cultural meta-mind. but
between moments of conscious residence in an observer or actors mind what is
the word beyond a modulated waves vibrating air or high contrast shapes on a
paper or screen?
The word jumps from paper or from the air-waves into our minds, and along
the way, in this voyage of perception from vibrating stereocilia inside the
cochlea through many distinguishable phases of auditory brain processing...
or through the eyes; the retina and the visual processing. Even before there
is any sense of the word the brain has just heard or seen it has already
been working hard (and who knows even begun pre-coloring the sensorial
outcome at some deep visceral level) and when finally sense consciously
arises - the debate is still unsettled on how this happens in the brain I
believe (I like the hypothesis of synchronized neural firing networks as a
mechanism for rising above a very noisy background, which the brain is).
In any case, how or what the intended recipient of this communicated symbol
ultimately experiences is not always predictable. It is because words (and
other imprecisely defined symbols) are in fact reified as they travel from
mind to mind - in some ways like digital data gets serialized then
deserialized into streams or packets as it crosses process boundaries, but
far more dependent on the unknowable (though predictable to some degree)
outcome of any symbol as it is reified in a given mind.
Communication only occurs after the perilous journey across the gulf between
minds has been completed and the outcome of that voyage creates an effect in
the receiving mind that is within a tolerable range of the expected effect
that was hoped for by the sender. It is a fragile process depending on
associative algorithms that are unique and largely opaque in each mind.
we agree - language is an imprecise and sometimes tragically misleading
tool, albeit one most powerful in helping our species build out the vast
assemblage of the various human cultures.
The importance of clearly communicating cardinal terms cannot be overstated.
>>I agree. That is why I have given a clear and general notion of God. It
does not make physics into a religion, in a general sense, but it makes
physicalism into one, a bit like 0 is a number (which means numerous!).
All rests upon on nothing. or is that no thing?
Nothing is everywhere, unburdened by being; soaring, by going nowhere J
Words are symbolic vehicles, conveying meaning across the discontinuous gulf
between minds. Not only must the minds in the communication chain, share an
agreement of their symbolic meaning - in order for them to work as intended,
but as you pointed out the choice of words used to convey a thought can have
a profound effect on the outcome.
>>But in the choice of a word meaning, you cannot satisfy everyone. With
"god" you make nervous the atheists, for example. But that is normal, as
atheists want some precise God to be able to say that they don't believe in
it, like if in science we could learn from a statement refuting fairy tales.
In fact, it helps the maintenance of the fairy tales.
Living as I do in a country infected with our own American Taliban, and they
are every bit as hateful, spiteful, hypocritical and death worshipping a
bunch as their Afghan namesake the word God sets up a certain sympathetic
resonance in my mind that disturbs the force. I understand your intent - or
believe I do - but never the less find it difficult to escape the coloration
that this word god has in me. It feels so Southern Baptist. so evangelical.
Also, I agree, much easier to demolish the big bearded pater familas,
sitting on a magical cloud than some ineffable presence.
One exercise I engage in is to parse what I read for words whose purpose is
to color meaning rather than describe some fact. "News" reports are an
excellent place to discover this treasure trove of the use of adjectives and
coded phrases meant to trigger emotional responses and to generate firm
opinions.
Right, bt very often, changing the words can also have some perverse effect
and is confusing about the intended concept. Concepts, like theological
concepts are by their very nature rather hot. It is not just the words.
True
Chris
Bruno
Chris
John K Clark
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