Good question. There are so many metrics. A given environments bio-diversity for example (although bio-diversity ranges widely from place to place - a single valley in a bio-diversity hot spot in some place like Costa Rica can have a greater variety of species than an entire region of arboreal forest for example) But if one has good base line measurements of bio-diversity over time and can graph a collapse in this for some region then that is a pretty good indicator that something very disruptive of the ecosystem is happening.
Biomass is another good metric - the estimated annual production of total biomass per unit area will often also collapse when an ecosystem gets into serious trouble. A related yardstick that is pretty good is the organic matter content in top soil; good healthy soil is full of living things and organic matter. A damaged environment typically is one that is rapidly losing its topsoil - for land environmental niches only and not oceanic ecosystems, of course . Denuded land also loses its ability for water retention. An area that is in ecological trouble is often losing bio-diversity, and the ability to support a biomass without the addition of chemical inputs. and is also often characterized by the presence of invasive species. I am sure there are other important measurements - for example water quality, rates of mutation, sperm count, disease and parasite statistics and many other metrics I have missed. Chris From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Paul King Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2014 10:18 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Climate models Dear Friends, Is there a single objective definition of "damage to the environment"? On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 3:02 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: On 04 Apr 2014, at 19:32, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:55 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: On 02 Apr 2014, at 23:03, LizR wrote: On 3 April 2014 05:56, Chris de Morsella <cdemorse...@yahoo.com> wrote: -----Original Message----- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of smi...@zonnet.nl It is the belief that the scentists can be trusted to do the research they are supposed to do in a scientifically responsible way, vs. the belief in the conspiracy theory that the entire scientific field has been hijacked by ultra left wing environmental pressure groups. Saibal A conspiracy theory that has become spread through massive funding by the big holders of fossil carbon reserves -- seeking to protect the future valuation of those reserves, which has a large impact on the current valuation of their carbon holdings. An eminently rational (if cynical) motive, for these narrow carbon interests, but one that has sowed confusion and doubt, using the same "junk science" (and "left wing hijacked science") accusations that were perfected by Big Tobacco in the preceding decades. It worked then for Big Tobacco and this same strategy of sowing falsehoods, is working now for the big carbon interests. Exactly. It's even been making some headway in the interests of denying evolution, for God (as it were) knows what reason. That is why I don't think politics is possible as long as prohibition continue. It has been used as a sort of Trojan horse for bandits, and they will sell you what they want. Stopping prohibition will not be enough. We must separate politics from money. Agreed, but I think there's a subtly here -- politics in necessarily about money, because money is the fundamental tool that we have to manage resources, unless someone figures out a way to make communism work. There's nothing fundamentally good or evil about money, it's just a neutral tool that can be used both ways. I agree, the problem is black money only, and grey money. But I still believe that lobbying should be without money. If not you get big pharma, and big tobacco, voting for you. Electoral campaign should be payed with taxes, and be minimal, and equal for all party/politicians. I see the problem as more one of managing incentives. People react to incentives. I strongly believe that the pollution problem could be mitigated quickly if the free market had the incentive to do so. Carbon credits are a horrible idea, because they reinforce bad behaviours without creating the incentives that can actually solve the problem. If an objective cost can be calculated for the damage that certain companies cause to the environment, then let's charge them for this and re-distribute this money directly to the people, with no special rules or distinctions. Just a simple division. None of this money should ever fall under the control of politicians. Then the companies have an incentive to solve the problem, and less people have an incentive to lie. I am not sure that this is really realist, especially if the problem are big, mundial, and unaffordable by most companies responsible. Then if you have the (black) money, you can dilute the responsibility efficaciously. But again, my point was concerned with the "origin" of bad dishonest politics and its maintenance by special corporate interests. If a politicians can be proved to have lied on technical matter should be fired. Perhaps. This should be purely handed by the police and the courts, in the same way that they are used to place a cost on other undesirable behaviours. If instead this money falls under the control of politicians, we now have two problems. OK. Bruno Best, Telmo. We should vote on ideas and not humans. We should find a way to prevent democracies against propaganda, if not corporatism. The green should be ally with the antiprohibitionists. I do think that "prohibition" is the deep reason of possible climate perturbation, and economy. Like the abandon of rationality in the "spiritual" is the deep reason of why the non-sensical prohibition has seem conceivable today. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/-LyjqBLxxFY/unsubscribe. To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Kindest Regards, Stephen Paul King Senior Researcher Mobile: (864) 567-3099 stephe...@provensecure.com http://www.provensecure.us/ <http://m.c.lnkd.licdn.com/media/p/8/000/2c9/1ca/29d0ccd.png> "This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, notify sender immediately and delete this message immediately." -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
