This is fascinating, and I have had such experiences as well. I was warned against certain areas and I went there anyway. They looked more grimy, but never had a problem. I fondly remember a poor crack addict who wanted two things from me: cigarettes and to tell me about Jesus. I agreed with both and everything was fine. But you might consider that a nation state with executions, do not have a highly expanded rate of crime, nation wide, Yes, you never claimed this, but its a natural next step. You're against state executions out of fear of executing the innocent, which is sensible, but, its over-all effect on your societies, is not largely more peaceable then ours, considering your concern with US police and military. There may be a good reason not to have capital punishment, and that is, it may stress many people out, who are unrelated to the specific case. On the other hand, even primitive minds, such as myself can understand revenge. The "civilized society claim" is curious, which is why I invoked the crime rate comparison, because it punches a hole through the civilized society/we are better than you! argument. Which sort of shows that people who suggest this as fact, may be incorrect.
-----Original Message----- From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> To: everything-list <[email protected]> Sent: Fri, Jun 6, 2014 9:56 am Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 2:50 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: I am not attacking the EU, but I am trying to see if your impressions of the US are based on experience or news. Since it is based on experience, were there any neighborhoods you would have been intimidated to visit, or, since, I am prompting you, as a non-US citizen, and speaking to the US crime rate-regarding executions, a part of a city where it's best to be cautious? I was warned against certain areas and I went there anyway. They looked more grimy, but never had a problem. I fondly remember a poor crack addict who wanted two things from me: cigarettes and to tell me about Jesus. I agreed with both and everything was fine. My response is really for your post before this one, and your belief that (apparently) crime is prevalent everywhere in the US, because we have the death penalty. I never claimed this, perhaps you are confusing me with another poster. I oppose the death penalty on principle: I believe it is wrong to kill other human beings, except when absolutely necessary for self-defence. I believe that violence generates more violence, but I never made any claims about the crime rate in the USA. It seems that this was not your experience in real life, which would contradict, perhaps, your world view. On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 9:11 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: I shan't suggest that our rugged collective ancestors were happier than we, less spoiled yes, but happier no. Of course, this is pure speculation. Who knows? There is some empirical evidence that depression is on the rise, but this could be for a number or reasons. Have any of you folks visited the US? It is, for whatever its worth is a nation state of about 320 million inhabitants. I was lucky enough to be able to visit it a number of times. I have been to 9 states so far, spanning the east and west coast, the south and middle america. I loved it every single time and hope to go more times -- although I am less inclined theses days because the TSA freaks me out. Overall the USA felt very welcoming. People are nicer to strangers than in Europe. I am also an admirer of parts of USA history, including its constitutional principles. I think the declaration of independence is a beautiful document and a turing point in world history. It states that life is an unalienable right, that the government exists to protect. Dopamine is not justice, Sure. "Justice" is a superstition. nor, is it respect for one's fellow primates, but do you view it as a place where the streets run red with blood? No, as per above. What communities in the US are the most violent? The police and the military. I am not trying to dissuade you folks of your views, but am fascinated by the notion, that, because we are easier on criminals, life is thus, better, and so are we, as societies. The idea that violence leads to more violence doesn't seem so far-fetched to me. But hey... In the 1990's the US experienced a domestic terrorist strike in Oklahoma, City in 1995. In 1993, the Muslim Brotherhood tried the same thing, but failed, in 1993 at the Twin Towers in NYC. Timothy MacVeigh was executed, and I see that as the right revenge for Breivik. MacVeigh killed 164 people. No dopamine is necessary, and despite his sentencing, how long will Breivik remain in jail? There is a lot to dislike about Europe, but one thing can be said for us: we don't base our justice system on revenge anymore. The police forces are mostly passive, they react to complains instead of looking for people to punish. The goal of the judicial system is to lower crime rates, not to provide revenge. I feel safer in such a system, and it appears to work quite well. Telmo. -----Original Message----- From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> To: everything-list <[email protected]> Sent: Fri, Jun 6, 2014 7:23 am Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 9:11 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: I shan't suggest that our rugged collective ancestors were happier than we, less spoiled yes, but happier no. Of course, this is pure speculation. Who knows? There is some empirical evidence that depression is on the rise, but this could be for a number or reasons. Have any of you folks visited the US? It is, for whatever its worth is a nation state of about 320 million inhabitants. I was lucky enough to be able to visit it a number of times. I have been to 9 states so far, spanning the east and west coast, the south and middle america. I loved it every single time and hope to go more times -- although I am less inclined theses days because the TSA freaks me out. Overall the USA felt very welcoming. People are nicer to strangers than in Europe. I am also an admirer of parts of USA history, including its constitutional principles. I think the declaration of independence is a beautiful document and a turing point in world history. It states that life is an unalienable right, that the government exists to protect. Dopamine is not justice, Sure. "Justice" is a superstition. nor, is it respect for one's fellow primates, but do you view it as a place where the streets run red with blood? No, as per above. What communities in the US are the most violent? The police and the military. I am not trying to dissuade you folks of your views, but am fascinated by the notion, that, because we are easier on criminals, life is thus, better, and so are we, as societies. The idea that violence leads to more violence doesn't seem so far-fetched to me. But hey... In the 1990's the US experienced a domestic terrorist strike in Oklahoma, City in 1995. In 1993, the Muslim Brotherhood tried the same thing, but failed, in 1993 at the Twin Towers in NYC. Timothy MacVeigh was executed, and I see that as the right revenge for Breivik. MacVeigh killed 164 people. No dopamine is necessary, and despite his sentencing, how long will Breivik remain in jail? There is a lot to dislike about Europe, but one thing can be said for us: we don't base our justice system on revenge anymore. The police forces are mostly passive, they react to complains instead of looking for people to punish. The goal of the judicial system is to lower crime rates, not to provide revenge. I feel safer in such a system, and it appears to work quite well. Telmo. You could argue that we are unlucky to be living in 2014, and that our hunter-gatherer ancestors lead happier and more fulfilling lives. This might well be the case, because they were leading lives in the environment that they were evolved to live in. On the other hand, we have technology and reason on our side. We can create dopamine hits artificially to relieve people in need, without causing further violence. The only thing preventing us are superstitions inherited from a distant past. In 2011, Anders Breivik sought to punish race-traitors, and the Socialist Party summer camp, Telmo. -----Original Message----- From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> To: everything-list <[email protected]> Sent: Wed, Jun 4, 2014 7:05 am Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 11:03 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: You may be correct indeed, but if being part of the "civilized world" protects violent, predatory, criminals, including, (drumroll) Islamists and Putin, the I suppose I will demur from being civilized. Most capital crimes, even in Texas, are crimes of passion. I don't see it (no death penalty) as being civilized, I view it as an excuse to be uncaring toward the victim's family. The desire for vengeance is hard-wired in our brains. We get a good dopamine hit from it, which might relief the suffering of people who are grieving. Now, in 2014, we can recognise this mechanism for what it is. It was probably useful for our hunter-gatherer ancestors, but it is maladaptive in a globalised world with 7 billion people and nuclear weapons. You could argue that we are unlucky to be living in 2014, and that our hunter-gatherer ancestors lead happier and more fulfilling lives. This might well be the case, because they were leading lives in the environment that they were evolved to live in. On the other hand, we have technology and reason on our side. We can create dopamine hits artificially to relieve people in need, without causing further violence. The only thing preventing us are superstitions inherited from a distant past. Telmo. The USA are alone in this. It's not some uncertain utopia, it has been fully achieved in most of the civilised world. -----Original Message----- From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> To: everything-list <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Jun 3, 2014 6:57 am Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:47 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: No death penalties. I am not sure I agree, but if this is the goal, then things need to be done really differently. Hum? Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Capital_punishment.PNG The USA are alone in this. It's not some uncertain utopia, it has been fully achieved in most of the civilised world. Telmo. I am not sure what you mean by "to seek my goal". -----Original Message----- From: LizR <[email protected]> To: everything-list <[email protected]> Sent: Mon, Jun 2, 2014 6:48 pm Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! On 3 June 2014 10:28, spudboy100 via Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: To seek your goal I am guessing elements of society, law, and technology, must improve. I am not sure what you mean by "to seek my goal". For many, nothing is broken, or they have an interest in things continuing as they are. We'd have to get into problem soving mode to do all that. The world does not seem to be in a problem solving mood. This is of course true, "business as usual" is nideed in the process of destroying the world. Not sure what it has to do with the previous topic but FWIW I agree. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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