It seems that this was not your experience in real life, which would
contradict, perhaps, your world view.
On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 9:11 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List <[email protected]
> wrote:
I shan't suggest that our rugged collective ancestors were happier
than we, less spoiled yes, but happier no.
Of course, this is pure speculation. Who knows?
There is some empirical evidence that depression is on the rise, but
this could be for a number or reasons.
Have any of you folks visited the US? It is, for whatever its worth
is a nation state of about 320 million inhabitants.
I was lucky enough to be able to visit it a number of times. I have
been to 9 states so far, spanning the east and west coast, the south
and middle america. I loved it every single time and hope to go more
times -- although I am less inclined theses days because the TSA
freaks me out. Overall the USA felt very welcoming. People are nicer
to strangers than in Europe. I am also an admirer of parts of USA
history, including its constitutional principles. I think the
declaration of independence is a beautiful document and a turing
point in world history. It states that life is an unalienable right,
that the government exists to protect.
Dopamine is not justice,
Sure. "Justice" is a superstition.
nor, is it respect for one's fellow primates, but do you view it as
a place where the streets run red with blood?
No, as per above.
What communities in the US are the most violent?
The police and the military.
I am not trying to dissuade you folks of your views, but am
fascinated by the notion, that, because we are easier on criminals,
life is thus, better, and so are we, as societies.
The idea that violence leads to more violence doesn't seem so far-
fetched to me. But hey...
In the 1990's the US experienced a domestic terrorist strike in
Oklahoma, City in 1995. In 1993, the Muslim Brotherhood tried the
same thing, but failed, in 1993 at the Twin Towers in NYC. Timothy
MacVeigh was executed, and I see that as the right revenge for
Breivik. MacVeigh killed 164 people. No dopamine is necessary, and
despite his sentencing, how long will Breivik remain in jail?
There is a lot to dislike about Europe, but one thing can be said
for us: we don't base our justice system on revenge anymore. The
police forces are mostly passive, they react to complains instead of
looking for people to punish. The goal of the judicial system is to
lower crime rates, not to provide revenge. I feel safer in such a
system, and it appears to work quite well.
Telmo.
-----Original Message-----
From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, Jun 6, 2014 7:23 am
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 9:11 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List <[email protected]
> wrote:
I shan't suggest that our rugged collective ancestors were happier
than we, less spoiled yes, but happier no.
Of course, this is pure speculation. Who knows?
There is some empirical evidence that depression is on the rise, but
this could be for a number or reasons.
Have any of you folks visited the US? It is, for whatever its worth
is a nation state of about 320 million inhabitants.
I was lucky enough to be able to visit it a number of times. I have
been to 9 states so far, spanning the east and west coast, the south
and middle america. I loved it every single time and hope to go more
times -- although I am less inclined theses days because the TSA
freaks me out. Overall the USA felt very welcoming. People are nicer
to strangers than in Europe. I am also an admirer of parts of USA
history, including its constitutional principles. I think the
declaration of independence is a beautiful document and a turing
point in world history. It states that life is an unalienable right,
that the government exists to protect.
Dopamine is not justice,
Sure. "Justice" is a superstition.
nor, is it respect for one's fellow primates, but do you view it as
a place where the streets run red with blood?
No, as per above.
What communities in the US are the most violent?
The police and the military.
I am not trying to dissuade you folks of your views, but am
fascinated by the notion, that, because we are easier on criminals,
life is thus, better, and so are we, as societies.
The idea that violence leads to more violence doesn't seem so far-
fetched to me. But hey...
In the 1990's the US experienced a domestic terrorist strike in
Oklahoma, City in 1995. In 1993, the Muslim Brotherhood tried the
same thing, but failed, in 1993 at the Twin Towers in NYC. Timothy
MacVeigh was executed, and I see that as the right revenge for
Breivik. MacVeigh killed 164 people. No dopamine is necessary, and
despite his sentencing, how long will Breivik remain in jail?
There is a lot to dislike about Europe, but one thing can be said
for us: we don't base our justice system on revenge anymore. The
police forces are mostly passive, they react to complains instead of
looking for people to punish. The goal of the judicial system is to
lower crime rates, not to provide revenge. I feel safer in such a
system, and it appears to work quite well.
Telmo.
You could argue that we are unlucky to be living in 2014, and that
our hunter-gatherer ancestors lead happier and more fulfilling
lives. This might well be the case, because they were leading lives
in the environment that they were evolved to live in. On the other
hand, we have technology and reason on our side. We can create
dopamine hits artificially to relieve people in need, without
causing further violence. The only thing preventing us are
superstitions inherited from a distant past. In 2011, Anders Breivik
sought to punish race-traitors, and the Socialist Party summer camp,
Telmo.
-----Original Message-----
From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Jun 4, 2014 7:05 am
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 11:03 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List <[email protected]
> wrote:
You may be correct indeed, but if being part of the "civilized
world" protects violent, predatory, criminals, including, (drumroll)
Islamists and Putin, the I suppose I will demur from being
civilized. Most capital crimes, even in Texas, are crimes of
passion. I don't see it (no death penalty) as being civilized, I
view it as an excuse to be uncaring toward the victim's family.
The desire for vengeance is hard-wired in our brains. We get a good
dopamine hit from it, which might relief the suffering of people who
are grieving. Now, in 2014, we can recognise this mechanism for what
it is. It was probably useful for our hunter-gatherer ancestors, but
it is maladaptive in a globalised world with 7 billion people and
nuclear weapons.
You could argue that we are unlucky to be living in 2014, and that
our hunter-gatherer ancestors lead happier and more fulfilling
lives. This might well be the case, because they were leading lives
in the environment that they were evolved to live in. On the other
hand, we have technology and reason on our side. We can create
dopamine hits artificially to relieve people in need, without
causing further violence. The only thing preventing us are
superstitions inherited from a distant past.
Telmo.
The USA are alone in this. It's not some uncertain utopia, it has
been fully achieved in most of the civilised world.
-----Original Message-----
From: Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, Jun 3, 2014 6:57 am
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:47 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List <[email protected]
> wrote:
No death penalties. I am not sure I agree, but if this is the goal,
then things need to be done really differently.
Hum? Check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Capital_punishment.PNG
The USA are alone in this. It's not some uncertain utopia, it has
been fully achieved in most of the civilised world.
Telmo.
I am not sure what you mean by "to seek my goal".
-----Original Message-----
From: LizR <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, Jun 2, 2014 6:48 pm
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
On 3 June 2014 10:28, spudboy100 via Everything List <[email protected]
> wrote:
To seek your goal I am guessing elements of society, law, and
technology, must improve.
I am not sure what you mean by "to seek my goal".
For many, nothing is broken, or they have an interest in things
continuing as they are. We'd have to get into problem soving mode to
do all that. The world does not seem to be in a problem solving mood.
This is of course true, "business as usual" is nideed in the process
of destroying the world. Not sure what it has to do with the
previous topic but FWIW I agree.
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