On 02 May 2017, at 00:48, John Clark wrote:
On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 9:22 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
>> what is that one and only one answer? Is it Moscow or
Washington? And if there is only one then why do you call
it " the future 1p views ", why is it plural?
> Because we are in a duplication thought experiment.
Then it's "a future 1p view" not "THE future 1p views"
, assuming that is that "future 1p view" actually means
something.
Not at all. We know (modulo Mechanism) that the experience will feel
to be unique and asymmetrical when we are still in Helsinki. "a" is
good, but "the" makes as much sense, given that wherever we will feel
to be, it will be in one place.
> We can say that the one answer will be "Washington and
not Moscow" or "Moscow and not Washington", but in Helsinki we
can’t predict which one precisely.
Helsinki? Precisely? Even after the experiment is over nobody can
answer even approximately the question "what one and only one city
will I see after I am duplicated?".
if you are using "will", the question has to be asked before.
The fact that this can not be answered is not due to some deeply
hidden fact about the nature of reality, it can't be answered
because it's not a question, it's not even a stupid question, in a
world that contains "I" duplicating machines it's just gibberish
with a question mark at the end.
That is just denying simple verifiable facts, or you need to
elaborate, because it is close to nonsense.
> You ask me non-sensical or ambiguous question.
That's true I did indeed, but I can't claim credit for the
"question", it originally came from you. You're the one that claimed
that because nobody can answer the nonsensical and ambiguous
question "what one and only one city will I see after I am
duplicated?" profound conclusions about something you call "first
person indeterminacy" can be drawn.
I just said that non specific answer can be given correctly, and I
proved it. Some non specific answer is available, and "W or M" works
perfectly. To say that this makes no sense is equivalent with
eliminating the first person experience of both copies. If not, just
listen to what they can possibly say.
>> I'm just asking how many correct answers to the question
"what cities will the Helsinki man see?”are there. I say there
are 2, you say there is only one, you say it is M OR W but not
both, so I want to know which answer turned out to be wrong,
was Washington wrong or was Moscow wrong?
>Washington is wrong, given that it fails for the Moscow man,
and Moscow is wrong as it fails for the Washington man.
So according to you the Helsinki man will see NEITHER
Moscow NOR Washington,
That simply does not follow.
if you're right the poor man will see nothing but oblivion. I don't
think you're right.
> Not at all. H-BM will see W, and H-BM will see M, but none will
see "W and M”.
Oh I see, and that cat has black spots and white spots but that
doesn’t mean the cat has black and white spots. No I take it
back, I don’t see,
That contradicts the fact that you have already agreed that the guy in
Halsinki will see only one city (indeed, both copies will see only one
city).
> And "H-BM will see W, and H-BM will see M," is a 3-1 description
of the 1p, but it is not the 1p experiences themselves, as nobody
will see the two cities at once.
Then from “the 1-p experience itself" what one
and only one city will the Helsinki man see after the duplication
experiment is over?
The point is that it is impossible to know that in advance. "W" is
refuted by the M-guy, and vice versa. W and M is refuted by both, so
only "W v M" remains.
Assuming the term “the 1-p experience itself"
actually means something there can be only one answer, Moscow
or Washington, so which is it?
It is "Moscow or Washington". You get the point, but will most
plausibly deny it.
If you can't name that one and only one city before the experiment
nor even after it has been completed then it is not a experiment at
all, it's just a muddle.
When I throw a coin, I can't say the result in advance. If I could
answer to your question, then there would be no first person
indeterminacy indeed.
> You continue to systematically ignore the 1p and 3p views,
And I can see no reason to change my policy until you rectify the
internal contradictions in your homemade baby talk.
Then you will remain stuck in your misunderstanding, given that the
1p-3p distinction is a prerequisite for pursuing the reasoning.
> which is at the heart of the whole mind-body problem
The key mind-body problem is "how can matter be arranged in such a
way that intelligent behavior is produced?". When that question is
fully answered it will be by AI researchers not philosophers.
> the H-guy, or anyone else for that matter, when we assume
mechanism, can be sure of not being able to predict which first
person experience the guy in Helsinki will live.
Forget assumptions forget predictions, nobody can even
postdict which first person experience the guy in Helsinki ended
up living because nobody knows what one and only one thing "the guy"
means in a world that contains guy duplicating machines.
There is no ambiguity, given that we assume mechanism, we know that
both copies are symmetrical in the 3p view, and yet that both will
feel the asymmetry, en the perception of one bit of information.
> He can be sure it will be "one city”,
And neither “he” nor anybody else will even know what that one
city was.
Both will know, after the duplication. You just never listen to them,
and so, de facto, are eliminating the 1-views, for mysterious reason,
given you have shown to accept the notion elsewhere.
Bruno
John K Clark
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
