On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 4:42 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
> >> >> >> Is the "you" after the button was pressed the same person as >> >> the "I" before the button was pushed, > > > > > Yes. We have agreed on this since the beginning. > > >> >> or is that other person in that other city the same as the "I" before the >> button was pushed? > > > > > Both are the same person, > So we agree that both are the same person as the "I" in Helsinki. And both are in different cities, so "I" in Helsinki will see 2 cities. >> >> so what one and only one city did "I" end up seeing, Moscow or >> Washington? If Bruno's ideas are not muddled that question could be >> answered with one word, but John Clark predicts if Bruno tries to answer >> that question at all it will be with many many words. > > > > > You ask me to predict a unique city, but > [...] > *NO*, I don't demand you predict anything, I'm asking for something that should be far far easier! The experiment is over and it is only now that I ask for the name of the one and only one city the Helsinki man ended up seeing . If your concepts were correct and well thought out you could easily answer the question "what is the name of the one and only one city that I am looking at right now?" with one word, but you can't, you can't answer it before the experiment and you can't even answer it AFTER the experiment, so nothing has been learned. And that's why it's not a experiment, it's just pointless activity. > >> >> You may be telepathic but I'm not, although what the hell telepathy has >> to do with what we were discussing is beyond me. > > > > > You needed to sustain the idea that "I" will see both city, > Why? Just a few paragraphs above in the same post you agreed that both are "I", and you agreed that both "I" are in two different cities, so to expect that a single name can answer the question "what city will I see?" is just silly, Mr. I will see both. > > > only one city, that, indeed, was impossible to predict in advance. > You can't predict only one city before the experiment for the exact same reason you can't name only one city even after the experiment is long over, Mr I ended up seeing more than one city. > > > > If you duplicate someone, without telepathy you will not duplicate the > first person experience **AS SEEN BY THOSE FIRST PERSON EXPERIENCE**. > *THE FIRST PERSON HELSINKI EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN DUPLICATED,* and that's why both are the Helsinki "I" before the button was pressed as you agreed above. > > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> A kid can do the verification >>> >>> >> >> >>> >> >>> Then it's important that we find that kid so he can tell us if the >>> one and only one city turned out to be Moscow >>> >>> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> That would eliminate again the first person views. >> > > > >> > Then a kid *CAN'T* do the verification. > > > > Of course he can. He can interview both copies. > Then after the kid completed all the interviews what is the name of the one and only one city that the Helsinki man ended up seeing? > > > It is very simple. There are two such "THE future lived experience", > If there are two then it's "*A* future lived experience" , and if there are two then there are two cities also. > >> >> >> To hell with that idiot diary! > > > > > This is the same as "To hell with that idiot interview of each copy". > It's far stupider than that because after the duplication you can't point to a unique individual and say "he wrote the diary" ; and if you can't do that then it serves no purpose. > > > You just eliminate the first person. > There are two, so which "the first person" do you claim I've eliminated? >> >> >> So which one and only one city is correct, W or M?? > > > > > W for the guy who see W. > M for the guy who see M. > The point being that both are the H-guy, and the H-guy could not known in > advance > Screw "advance"! Bruno's question "what city will I see?" can NEVER be answered because in the context of a person duplicating machine Bruno does not know what "I" means. The question has no answer because it's not a question, it's just words with a question mark at the end. >> >> Anybody can tell how the coin flip turned out AFTER it occurred, >> >> but nobody can tell how your "experiment" turned out after it occurred, >> and that's why it's not a >> >> experiment. > > > > > False. We have two guys perfectly able to answer the question after. > Well then let's hear it! I'm not asking you to become a soothsayer I'm just asking you to be a historian, after the experiment is all over and after the two guys had time to confer with each other what was the one and only one city they both agree the Helsinki man ended up seeing. Was it Moscow or Washington? I'm all ears. > >> >> >> You've booked a flight to Moscow and so predict with high confidence that >> next tuesday you will self-localize in Moscow, however an unexpected >> snowstorm hit Moscow and your flight is canceled. So next tuesday you're >> still in Helsinki and you realize your prediction was incorrect; does that >> failed prediction make you lose your sense of individuality and personal >> identity? > > > > > No. > Me neither. > > >> I feel that my individuality is continuous not because my predictions >> about the future are good but because I remember the past, I remember being >> John Clark yesterday so I feel like I'm John Clark today, as for tomorrow >> who knows. Trying to derive individuality by looking to the future and not >> the past is like pushing on a string, it doesn't work. > > > > > Yes, but we don't derive individuality here. > If today you remembered being John Clark yesterday then today you wouldn't be Bruno Marchal, you'd be John Clark. > > > On the contrary, we have agreed on what it is with computationalism. We > are interested in the subjective (first person) future outcome of a well > defined experience. > I'm certainly interested in what my future first person experiences will be but my predictions about them, correct or incorrect, have nothing to do with my sense of self. John K Clark > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
