> On 26 Sep 2018, at 19:32, Philip Thrift <cloudver...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, September 26, 2018 at 11:46:51 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>> On 25 Sep 2018, at 21:20, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <javascript:>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 25, 2018 at 12:01:22 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>> On 25 Sep 2018, at 15:35, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, September 25, 2018 at 7:12:13 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 24 Sep 2018, at 07:28, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sunday, September 23, 2018 at 10:55:52 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 23 Sep 2018, at 13:37, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sunday, September 23, 2018 at 4:41:56 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 23 Sep 2018, at 09:00, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sunday, September 23, 2018 at 1:28:02 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 22 Sep 2018, at 11:40, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Saturday, September 22, 2018 at 2:48:15 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 21 Sep 2018, at 19:55, John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 7:20 PM Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <>>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >> Mind is what a brain does
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >And walking and running is what the legs do.
>>>>>>>> There is no "walking" like some Platonic immaterial universal except
>>>>>>>> for some pair of legs to be doing it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Right, there is no thinking without a brain (biological or electronic)
>>>>>>>> to do it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Assuming your ontological commitment, but that is pseudo-religion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or equivalently: you confuse matter and primitive matter. Nobody doubt
>>>>>>> that to have human or biological consciousness, we need a human brain
>>>>>>> or some electronic device, but that is irrelevant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What has been proved, (see Kleene’s 1952 book) is that the arithmetical
>>>>>>> reality emulates all computations. No need of any more assumption than
>>>>>>> Church thesis and the very elementary arithmetic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But an ontological physical reality is only metaphysical speculation or
>>>>>>> hypothesis, and in our setting it is invalid to use it as a
>>>>>>> counter-argument. The most you can do, if you really want to take your
>>>>>>> ontology for granted, is to reject Digital Mechanism or to find a
>>>>>>> mistake in my argument, without using your ontological commitment
>>>>>>> (which would beg the question).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Up to now, you have failed to that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It still seems to me that consciousness itself could be an argument
>>>>>>> against a purely information-based ontology. ("Information" meaning
>>>>>>> based purely on numbers, combinators, etc.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Philip Goff and Michael Shermer discussed basically this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://scottbarrykaufman.com/podcast/solving-the-mysteries-of-consciousness-free-will-and-god-with-michael-shermer-and-philip-goff/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://scottbarrykaufman.com/podcast/solving-the-mysteries-of-consciousness-free-will-and-god-with-michael-shermer-and-philip-goff/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> via https://twitter.com/Philip_Goff/status/1043053992916467714
>>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/Philip_Goff/status/1043053992916467714>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (In there there is an about 1 hour podcast.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My summary (fits in a tweet) of Goff:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Physicalism, based on pure informationality (quantitative states and
>>>>>>> language} is not sufficient to explain consciousness, but a
>>>>>>> materialism (one greater than physicalism) that is based on
>>>>>>> experientiality (qualitative states and language) in addition to
>>>>>>> informationality, may be.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is short. You might elaborate. I can refer you to my papers which
>>>>>> shows that you cannot have both materialism/physicalism and Mechanism.
>>>>>> Many believe that materialism and mechanism go well together, but they
>>>>>> are logically incompatible. With mechanism, physics is reduced to
>>>>>> arithmetic “seen from inside”.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would say that mechanism explains rather well consciousness, through
>>>>>> computer science and the logic of self-reference ((which basically
>>>>>> predict consciousness (indubitable, non provable and non definable sort
>>>>>> of knowledge), but with the price of forcing to drive the physical
>>>>>> appearance from that theory of consciousness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That was my reply in a tweet to Goff's [
>>>>>> https://twitter.com/Philip_Goff/status/1043053992916467714
>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/Philip_Goff/status/1043053992916467714> ] to
>>>>>> summarize in my own words the Goff view.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I elaborate further in my previous post here on Realistic
>>>>>> Computationalism:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/ZDKbxJuQYt4/Z7C1ePCzAwAJ
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/ZDKbxJuQYt4/Z7C1ePCzAwAJ>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By Pure Computationalism [
>>>>>> https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/computation-physicalsystems
>>>>>> <https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/computation-physicalsystems> ] I
>>>>>> mean that everything
>>>>>
>>>>> Which everything? What are your basic metaphysical assumption?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> can be seen as computation with quantitative information (numbers,
>>>>>> basically) alone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given Goff's definition of physicalism, physicalism is consistent with
>>>>>> (pure) computationalism. But it's not sufficient for consciousness
>>>>>> (Goff, Strawson) , even if computation is extended to hypercomputation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But then materialism > physicalism (i-states + e-states > i-states).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At this stage materialism and physicalism can be identified, and we can
>>>>> add nuances later.
>>>>>
>>>>> But with computationalism, neither materialism (even weak, the belief in
>>>>> some matter not reducible to something else) nor physicalism are
>>>>> consistent with Mechanism. A short argument can be find here:
>>>>>
>>>>> B. Marchal. The Origin of Physical Laws and Sensations. In 4th
>>>>> International System Administration and Network Engineering Conference,
>>>>> SANE 2004, Amsterdam, 2004.
>>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html>
>>>>> (sane04)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> More details are given here:
>>>>>
>>>>> Marchal B. The computationalist reformulation of the mind-body problem.
>>>>> Prog Biophys Mol Biol; 2013 Sep;113(1):127-40
>>>>>
>>>>> Marchal B. The Universal Numbers. From Biology to Physics, Progress in
>>>>> Biophysics and Molecular Biology, 2015, Vol. 119, Issue 3, 368-381.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as I can tell from the summaries:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S007961071300028X
>>>>> <https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S007961071300028X>
>>>>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079610715000887
>>>>> <https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079610715000887>
>>>>>
>>>>> Realistic Computationalism (RealComp) is still greater than Pure
>>>>> Computationalism (PureComp, or just Comp, which includes all in the above
>>>>> two references)
>>>>>
>>>>> and it is basically Philip Goff's view:
>>>>>
>>>>> PureComp emulates how things behave, but not how they are in themselves.
>>>>
>>>> Good. In arithmetic computable entails arithmetic, but most attribute of
>>>> the computable thing are not computable, that is why the machine will be
>>>> identify with her beliefs, and this makes each machine very different,
>>>> that is how consciousness differentiate in arithmetic to begin with.
>>>>
>>>> Bruno
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In your Progress in Biophysics & Molecular Biology papers (which I'd like
>>>> to see),
>>>
>>> Just ask. I will send you some papers I have published there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> it would be interesting to see how this relates to reflection (the subject
>>>> beginning with Brian Cantwell Smith's fundamental thesis) in programming
>>>> language theory. (This is the study of code that is "self-aware", can
>>>> reason about and modify itself, etc.)
>>>
>>> Are you talking about FOL and its lisp-like tower?. That is an interesting
>>> (albeit a bit naive metaphysically) approach. If you like Smith, you should
>>> like the general (and much older) theory, which is actually the theory of
>>> any universal machine when studying itself. But Smith belongs to the
>>> mechanist family, no doubt.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the case of consciousness, if it is something beyond pure informational
>>>> processing - which a lot of physicists think physics just is (Tegmark,
>>>> Carroll, ...) - it could be that chemistry and/or biology is not reducible
>>>> to physics = not reducible to pure informational processing.
>>>>
>>>> This is called nonreductive materialism.
>>>
>>> You might read the sane paper (already available on my URL, see above).
>>> Mechanism protects the machine from (basically) all reductionism,
>>> including the 19th century conception of machine and numbers, and it shows
>>> rather directly that (reductive and non reductive) materialism are both
>>> inconsistent with mechanism.
>>>
>>> Bruno
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you have PDFs of
>>>
>>>
>>> Marchal B. The computationalist reformulation of the mind-body problem.
>>> Prog Biophys Mol Biol; 2013 Sep;113(1):127-40
>>>
>>> Marchal B. The Universal Numbers. From Biology to Physics, Progress in
>>> Biophysics and Molecular Biology, 2015, Vol. 119, Issue 3, 368-381.
>>>
>>> I will read those [ email: cloudversed at gmail dot com ].
>>
>>
>> Done.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I have read
>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html
>>> <http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html>
>>>
>>> Two points:
>>>
>>> 1. Nonreductive materialism holds that physicalism is false.
>>> see, for example, https://people.umass.edu/lrb/files/bak06agaM.pdf
>>> <https://people.umass.edu/lrb/files/bak06agaM.pdf>
>>
>> Indeed. But Comùputationalism, aka Digital Mechanism, makes all form of
>> metaphysical materialism either inconsistent or spurious (like involving
>> involving epicycles or worst “invisible horses”, violating Occam in a some
>> strong sense).
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> (Physicalism came from the idea that everything can be reduced to physics,
>>> which turns out to be models of purely quantitative information. See
>>> Tegmark's Mathematical Universe.)
>>
>> That can be a subject of discussion later. Tegmark’s form of mathematicalism
>> is still physicalism, although not materialism. But he has progressed toward
>> computationalism, certainly.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> 2. A computation (what I call real computation) that incorporates
>>> experiential states (e-states) in addition to informational states
>>> (i-states) would be be different from any i-state-only computation
>>
>> Very good! That is recovered in the discourse of the machine which
>> introspect itself (in the the Gödel-Kleene mathematical precise). To confuse
>> a i-state-only and a e-state, is akin to a confusion between first person
>> and third person, or a confusion between []p and []p & p. That is also part
>> of the debate between in between the neoplatonist theologians. A good book
>> illustrating this “Ancient Epistemology,” by Gerson (an expert on Plotinus).
>> You might study my PDF on how I “translate” Plotinus in Arithmetic through
>> the nuance brought by incompleteness on “provability”. Incompleteness makes
>> it from the machine perspective into believability, and by disguishing truth
>> and provability, it gives sense to the standard theory of knowledge of
>> Theaetetus, and it enforces different logics and mathematics for
>> believability, knowability, observability, sensibility. Incompleteness also
>> divides those logics into a machine justifiable (and representational part)
>> and a non justifiable part (still representational) added with non
>> representational, non represensatble part.
>>
>> The observable is the invariant in the ‘bettable', on all (halting)
>> computation (multiplied somehow by the non halting one), that is, with []
>> for Gödel’s beweisbar arithmetical modality (the “Löbian Machine”), what you
>> can “meta-represent” through []p & <>t, and []p & <>t & p. I can motivate
>> for those definition both through through experience, and by using the
>> standard definition of the neoplatonist philosopher/théologian.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> (that means any Turing or hyper-Turing or reflective-Turing machine, or
>>> anything made of just "numbers”).
>>
>> Maybe you could define what you mean by hyper-Turing machine. I have heard
>> different definitions.
>>
>> Nor am I sure what you mean by made of just numbers. What I assume is that
>> there is a level of description of my “physical body” such that I would
>> survive if my “physical body” is emulated at that level, and this relatively
>> to the normal physical continuations.
>>
>> Many people miss that universal machine (sigma_1 complete theories are such)
>> are confronted to the non computable, and the first person indeterminacy
>> entails that below our substitution level, we are emulated by infinitely
>> many universal number/machine.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> The latter may emulate consciousness, but will not *be* conscious.
>>
>> Equivalently the consciousness weigh will be of measure null, may be, or you
>> introduce weird zombies.
>>
>> Or you talk about the oracle, the gods are not conscious, I can make some
>> sense of this, but I would judge all possible notion of oracle. The usual
>> sigma_1 machine cannot distinguish an oracle with a machine more complex
>> than itself. Yet by reasoning we can understand that the sigma_1 machine are
>> confronted with some oracle, and “time” is a sort of halting oracle (yet not
>> self-halting oracle) in the limit.
>>
>> People must be careful that the digital surgeon provides them with an
>> authentic Turing machine, or combinator, or any universal number, and not
>> with an hyper-Turing machine.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> (Whether a conscious brain can be be manufactured with totally different
>>> elements depends on the e-states different matter can have.)
>>
>>
>> I prefer to not assume matter. My point is that IF we can survive a digital
>> brain transplant at some level, then physics is reduced to a statistics on
>> first person experience on a universal dovetailing (aka the set of all true
>> sigma_1 sentence structured by some modalities of self-reference.
>>
>> The beauty here is that G* shows that all modalities are confronted to the
>> same (sigma_1) truth, but the machine cannot not structured in a non
>> equivalent way (yet related).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> We can only make things out of matter, and we can only make new matter with
>>> the matter we have.
>>
>>
>> I guess you have to say no to the digitalis surgeon. All what I say is IF
>> Digital Mechanism is correct, then physics has to be extracted from the
>> modalities of self-reference, and so we can test it. Up to now, the Matter
>> modalities do obey quantum logics, and the hope is that they are enough
>> “hilbertian” to have an equivalent of (arithmetic termed) Gleason theorem.
>>
>> Matter exists phenomenologically with Mechanism, but what exist
>> ontologically is any term of any Turing complete theory, or Turing universal
>> machine.
>>
>> It looks we might work in very different theory.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> By hyper-Turing I just mean computing related to doing hyperarithmetic (with
>> Turing jumps, etc.)
>> - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperarithmetical_theory
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperarithmetical_theory> ].
>
>
> OK. Nice precision. Yes arithmetic is full of Gods (non Turing emulable
> things, person persons). I would invoke them at the least resort, and most
> still obeys to the same theology, that they are Löbian, and obeys to G and
> G*, leading to similar physics than us, but at different level. That was seen
> by Solovay already in his 1976 paper. Boolos explains some of them in his
> 1993 book.
>
>
>>
>> I think a difference between universal computationalism (or pure
>> computationalism) and real computationalism (the "real" word I take from
>> Galen Strawson) is my real computationalism is something of a more practical
>> (or pragmatist, or even engineering) perspective than a purely theoretical
>> perspective:
>
> OK. My interest is pragmatical too, but probably more after death than
> before, somehow. It is pragmatical too in the sense that learning to the
> machine’s already existing, despite it still require studying mathematical
> logic, provide a sort of etalon theology helming to compare the human
> theology, especially that there is a theological trap, leading for example to
> irrationalism in the field like when separated from science.
>
> My intellectual interest is in the mind-body problem, and who am I, what can
> be expected, etc.
>
> I am humble enough to know that we cannot know the truth “for sure”, but with
> mechanism, we get a pretty good collection of mathematical tools to put some
> light (and see that things are more complicated than expected).
>
>
>
>
>>
>> PTLOS(π,λ,τ,ο,Σ) = program, language,
>> transformer(compiler/assembler), object, substrate
>>
>>
>> [ draft at
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/ZDKbxJuQYt4/Z7C1ePCzAwAJ
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/ZDKbxJuQYt4/Z7C1ePCzAwAJ>
>> to be updated soon ]
>
> OK.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
> I should add that in parallel to mathematical logic and computability theory
> and even type theory there is the somewhat more practical subject of
> programming language theory (PLT).
>
> Any entry point is OK.
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=progamming+language+theory+books
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language_theory
>
>
> Some concepts from PLT (continuations, reflective monads, ...) can go back
> into mathematica logic.
No problem with this. I guess you appreciate topos theory and intutionistic
logic, but as I said to Bruce, machine’s theology, even without oracle (but
even more with oracle) is necessarily non constructive.
I am aware that some people, like the French logicians Jean-Yves Girard, or
Jean-Louis Krivine tried to extend the Curry-Howard isomorphism to classical
logic. If they succeed, PLT might have application in theology, but a lot of
works would have to be done before.
If you follow the combinators thread, at some point I might talk about typed
combinators and constructive logics, but mainly to point out how much non
constructive theoretical computer needs to be.
Bruno
>
> - pt
>
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