> On 9 Aug 2019, at 07:52, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Thursday, August 8, 2019, Bruce Kellett <bhkellet...@gmail.com > <mailto:bhkellet...@gmail.com>> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 2:15 PM Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com > <mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote: > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 10:19 PM Bruce Kellett <bhkellet...@gmail.com > <mailto:bhkellet...@gmail.com>> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 11:57 AM Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com > <mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote: > On Thursday, August 8, 2019, Bruce Kellett <bhkellet...@gmail.com > <mailto:bhkellet...@gmail.com>> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 4:50 AM Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com > <mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > A multitude of classical computational traces can be found in a quantum > computation. You point out this multitude of computation traces can be > viewed as one state of a larger space. Viewing it this way, however, doesn't > eliminate the multitude of the classical computational traces. > > But viewing it in terms of "multiple classical computational traces" does not > prove that there are multiple parallel worlds. You can change the basis > vectors, or the clustering properties of the components, to any extent that > you like. That does not change the fact that there is only one overall state, > in one world, and no parallel worlds anywhere. > > Not immediately, the logic to get to many worlds is as follows: > > > 1. There are multiple classical computational traces in the quantum computer. > > The operation might be representable in this way. But that does not mean that > this is what actually happens. Description in a different base leads to a > different perspective. > > You say this is merely a way of representing what is happening (and implying > what I suppose to be happening is not really real), but then this line of > reasoning fails to give any account of how Shor's algorithm factors the 1000 > bit semi-prime. > > We have explained how Shor's algorithm factors the 1000 bit semi-prime: by > rotations in the 2^1000dimension Hilbert space -- all one world. > > > Can we agree then that this 2^1000 dimensional Hilbert space is more than > just a matter of some perspective? > > > > 2. If the classical computational traces are computations of conscious minds, > there are multiple conscious minds and points of views. > > Consciousness requires decoherent interaction with an environment, and there > is no decoherence within the QC. > > Then you get either (a) violations of Church-Turing or (b) philosophical > zombies. Which do you suppose it is? > > Philosophical zombies, assuming that these computations report "I am > conscious". They are actually lying. I can write a program that prints out "I > am conscious." That does not prove that it is conscious. > > Okay. That is at least consistent with your rejection of digital mechanism. > (The computational theory of mind). > > Do you believe that the same computation run on a classical computer *would* > be conscious? > > > > 3. The quantum computer maintains the superposition of the multiple > computational traces by virtue of being isolated from the environment. > > So there cannot be conscious points of view within it. > > According to what theory of mind? > > The theory of mind that says that conscious minds interact with the physical > environment. > > Dreams are impossible under such a theory.
Contra-lucid dreams are impossible. Bruce could still claim that all dreams are lucid, (like day-dreams) and this corroborates his statement that he knows when he is awake, which indeed presupposes a non digital-mechanist theory of mind. Somehow, Bruce invoke a “mystical” relations between mind and matter. He is coherent with his non mechanist presupposition and his believe in a primitive irreducible physical reality, obeying some wave packet reduction. He is close to Stapp and Wigner where eventually consciousness is responsible for the wave packet reduction. Bruno > > > > 4. Our own minds are isolated from the rest of the environment for some > definition of the environment (e.g. a sphere with a 200 light year radius > centered on Earth). > > The immediate environment even within our own skulls is sufficient to > decohere anything quantum. > > Dechorence is relative. Nothing in your brain is interacting with anything > 200 light years away (at least not for 200 years). > > Nothing in my brain need to interact with anything 200 ly away-- it need only > interact with my skull (or itself) to decohere. > > But coherence and decoherence are relative. What is it about the qubits that > allows them to interact with other qubits and remain coherent? Why don't > those other qubits count as part of their environment? > > > > > 5. From the perspective of a scientist outside this sphere, we can be viewed > as a superposition of many possible states. > > There is no such perspective, because if he is outside the future light cone > he can get no information about the state at the centre. If he interacts with > it, he decoheres it and it is just another "relative state" (single world). > > I am speaking of the time between your birth and the time he interacts with > your state. During this time your brain is in a superposition of many > possible states (from his vantage point). When he interacts with it, 200 > years from now, he becomes part of the superposition (maintained for the > entity 400 light years away). > > No, he is more intelligent than that. He knows that Wigner's friend has > already decohered the wave function, and that quantum superpositions of > decohered objects do not exist. > > You speak as if decoherence is an objective property if the wave function. > If we run a simulation of every atom of Wigner's lab in a quantum computer, > when does decoherence happen? > > > > 6. Hence we experience "many worlds" in the sense that the wave function for > the state of the earth becomes a superposition of huge number of > possibilities. (From the POV) of the scientist outside the sphere. > > There is no such perspective. Even if there were, the "outside" observer > would not see a superposition, because there are no internal multiple worlds > -- there is only the one world with one result from the quantum computation. > > This is just the "Wigner's friend" argument. And that has been shown many > times not to imply many worlds, or coherent superpositions of decohered > objects. > > You said before decoherence results when a system interacts with it's > environment. Well here the system of earth won't react with its external > environment for 200 years. > > What is the environment? You cannot restrict it this way. > > > There's no objective distinct between a system and it's environment. The > universe as a whole can be viewed as a system without any external > environment. > > > It is isolated in the same way the qubits are in the quantum computer. > > Qbits in the QC interact coherently, so there is no decoherence. My > interaction with my environment is not coherent. There is athedifference. > > The difference is only that you're prevented from interacting with the qubits > for some time. > > > So what is the difference? Why does the superposition persist in the quantum > computer but not in the Earth isolated from points in space 200 light year > away? Can you reference a rule or equation in quantum mechanics that > suggests an error in this reasoning? > > Rule: Decohered objects do not form quantum superpositions. > > > There's no objective decoherence so you can't speak of decohered objects. > Only objectives that have decohered relative to you or some other system. > > Jason > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CA%2BBCJUhKHh-RkptnNV3fquWF%2BMHA17fLQtcUgQwK00h9N2WQwg%40mail.gmail.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CA%2BBCJUhKHh-RkptnNV3fquWF%2BMHA17fLQtcUgQwK00h9N2WQwg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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